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Black Powder (or sub) 12 GA Paper and Brass Hull Loads


JackSlade
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So for someone getting started with shotgun loading.

 

I've been scouring the web for answers and it seems everyone has their own way of loading these 2 shells.

 

Is there a definitive answer to the following two questions?

 

For PAPER hulls (Federal), do the nitro card, fiber wad, and overshot card need to be different gauges to prevent bulging? I've heard of people downsizing the fiber wad and nitro wad to 14 gauge.

 

For Brass hulls (magtech), nitro card 11 ga, fiber wad 11 ga, overshot card 10 ga, with 11 gauge working if you crimp hard enough?

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Posted (edited)

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

 

https://circlefly.com/wad-sizing-chart

 

 

Edited by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329
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Posted (edited)

You don't crimp brass hulls. Over shot cards are almost always held in place with some form of adhesive.

 

Yes there are numerous ways to load both paper and brass hulls. Find what works for you.

 

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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For brass hulls crimping is not needed, place your overshot card on top and then glue.  For glue there are many, many options, the goal is for it to hold well and to not leave a lot of residue.  Water glass is the way it was done back in the day, I use Duco Cement, others use everything from Elmer’s Wood Glue to hot glue, find what works for you. 

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Yeah I reached out to that YouTuber and he couldn't speak to the wads he was using because he had a box of antique wads that were actually sized correctly for paper hulls. He wasn't using modern fiber wads.

I prefer to crimp instead of using an adhesive for the brass hulls.

 

My question was specifically for wad sizing in paper and in brass hulls, but I don't see any definitive answer in either of those charts

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

For brass hulls crimping is not needed, place your overshot card on top and then glue.  For glue there are many, many options, the goal is for it to hold well and to not leave a lot of residue.  Water glass is the way it was done back in the day, I use Duco Cement, others use everything from Elmer’s Wood Glue to hot glue, find what works for you. 

 

I'd like a bit more clarification/information on the glue. i did dabble with a box of Magtech 12 ga brass, before my Cowboy days so saw no need for pursuing the project any further at the time so I sold all the brass and related components. I do remember the glue being an issue, not with holding the card wad down, that was never an issue. 

 

My issue was with removal of the glue afterwards. I used hot glue and Elmer's. and both were hard to clean out afterwards. I did not try water glass. The glue issue was one of the factors for putting the project behind me. 

 

If I were to go down that rabbit hole again, I'd use fiber wads, mostly to control the height and put a light roll crimp onto/over a card wad. IMHO annealing the case mouth would be a good option to extend the life of the case. My thought being that you can roll crimp a 45 LC case 10 times without having issues, so a similar roll crimp on a 12 ga should be OK.

 

I did load in paper hulls, and was very happy with the ammo, but paper hulls develop pin hole burns on the first firing. Back in the day when paper hulls were an option load for trap and skeet 1F were cheap and plentiful, but the recommendation was to only reload once.  

 

BB

image.thumb.jpeg.ca107da659cd3c2f6e5088415e975852.jpeg

Edited by "Big Boston"
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If you are looking for traditional fiber wads check out Circle Fly Wads. They should have the correct sizes for both shot shells (brass, paper, plastic) and muzzleloading. Oh also, you do not crimp brass shot shells.

Lucky :D

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With the paper hulls, I use all 12ga wads,,,,, but I roll crimp with a setup from BPI and a cheeeep dril press from Harbor Freight. $45.00 with coupon. You have to cut the pie crimp off. Again, with a cheeep bandsaw from Harbor Freight. A friend and I went to the local skeet/trap range and got about a 3ft.sq. box of empty once shot Federal cases, which came out to almost 4ea. 5gal. buckets of cases. I was not cutting and crimping all those by hand. 

With the brass hulls (Magtech), 11ga. wads are in order. I've also got RMC hulls, 12 and 10ga, with those, use proper gauge wads. I use hot glue, no problem. I wet tumble with the steel pins. No problem with glue remnants in the case mouths.

YMMV,

Isom

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3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

I'd like a bit more clarification/information on the glue. i did dabble with a box of Magtech 12 ga brass, before my Cowboy days so saw no need for pursuing the project any further at the time so I sold all the brass and related components. I do remember the glue being an issue, not with holding the card wad down, that was never an issue. 

 

My issue was with removal of the glue afterwards. I used hot glue and Elmer's. and both were hard to clean out afterwards. I did not try water glass. The glue issue was one of the factors for putting the project behind me. 

 

If I were to go down that rabbit hole again, I'd use fiber wads, mostly to control the height and put a light roll crimp onto/over a card wad. IMHO annealing the case mouth would be a good option to extend the life of the case. My thought being that you can roll crimp a 45 LC case 10 times without having issues, so a similar roll crimp on a 12 ga should be OK.

 

I did load in paper hulls, and was very happy with the ammo, but paper hulls develop pin hole burns on the first firing. Back in the day when paper hulls were an option load for trap and skeet 1F were cheap and plentiful, but the recommendation was to only reload once.  

 

BB

image.thumb.jpeg.ca107da659cd3c2f6e5088415e975852.jpeg

 

For glue I use what I mentioned before Duco Cement, most hardware stores carry it, or if you prefer you can get it on Amazon here Duco Cement, what doesn’t come out from firing usually comes out in the tumbler.  Water glass is sodium silicate, here it is on Amazon Water Glass  While water glass works well but does have one drawback, it will breakdown over time and get brittle so as long as you don’t put the shells in long term storage it’ll work fine, I just found the cement to be more convenient.  As far as annealing/roll crimping I think it’s a waste of time here’s why, it’s not hard to put the crimp on but it’s another thing to get it back out.  Why do you want to get it out? The crimp will make it hard to get the nitro card and wads into the hull when reloading.  Without the crimp no need to anneal, crimp and remove, a .45C has a sizing die and a crimping die, other than CH4D dies I don’t know of any shotshell dies that are still available.  Also with the CH4D dies you’re limited to how short your shell is without having to modify the die.

 

Paper and plastic hulls used with real BP tend to be one and done.  Some have said that they get 2-3 reloads with plastic (I’m not arguing that) but with my loads and my crimp I don’t save any hulls (other than brass).  Real BP, as opposed to BP substitutes, burns hot enough to get plastic brittle and yes it can make small holes in paper hulls.  Add a roll crimp to this mix and for me I’ve found that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and just throw them away. 

 

My dos centavos, YMMV

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6 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

Posted twice, error on my part, sorry. Deleting not an option.

12 ga brass rool crimp.jpg

BTW Big Boston, those Duck Unlimited brass shotshells from Remington are Berdan primed.  

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17 hours ago, JackSlade said:

 

For Brass hulls (magtech), nitro card 11 ga, fiber wad 11 ga, overshot card 10 ga, with 11 gauge working if you crimp hard enough?

That is exactly what I use and I believe it was either circle fly wads or track of the wolf that recommended those sizes. People saying don't crimp brass hulls I disagree I absolutely do. It's not necessary if you're gluing in overshot cards but I prefer to add some bp lube over the card and then crimp. The issue with the crimp is it can be a bear to get the case mouth opened back up to get the wads in on the next reload. Annealing fixes that issue. As for paper hulls I used plastic wads and it worked just fine. But I'm pretty sure circle fly sells the proper fiber and nitro wads for them. I might have some old ones laying around if you want to give them a try you can have them for the cost of shipping. Just send me a pm

 

Jack

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