WTC.

[Three Foot Johnson]

So I WAS right. Either way, I still had a medium rare ribeye w/mushrooms, and corn on the cob.

[Tennessee williams]

 

2 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

Only shot 4. 1. Knockdown.  2 flyer. 3 Knockdown.  4 makeup target. 

 

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In that case, 1 miss (4th shot missed the bird...needed a 5th shot on the makeup to negate that miss).

 

 

Just so it's clear as mud. 

Was it this?

The shooter loaded 2, shot the 1st kd then 1st flier

Loaded 2 more, shot 2nd kd and attempted to shoot the 2nd flier but the round did not go off

Loaded 2 more and shot the make up target once.

That scenario looks like a no call since the bird was engaged and made up

 

Or was it this?

Shooter loaded 2, shot the first kd then the first flier

Shooter loaded 2 more, shot the 1st kd then skipped engaging the bird and went right to the makeup? 

That scenario looks like it needed 1 more round down range since the bird was technically missed with the 4th round. Or would it be a p for targets being out of order since we don't differentiate between target types, i.e. kds and stationary only firearm type targets, i.e. rifle, pistol, sg? 

Good grief I'm gonna eat my nanner pudding I have left over from supper.

 

 

[Mister Badly]

In your Nanner pudding scenario after the "attempted engagement" could the shooter break open the shotgun, snap it closed and fire the second barrel at the makeup?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

39 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

...

Or was it this?

Shooter loaded 2, shot the first kd then the first flier

Shooter loaded 2 more, shot the 1st kd then skipped engaging the bird and went right to the makeup? 

That scenario looks like it needed 1 more round down range since the bird was technically missed with the 4th round. Or would it be a p for targets being out of order since we don't differentiate between target types, i.e. kds and stationary only firearm type targets, i.e. rifle, pistol, sg? 

...

That's pretty much what I said in the quoted post.

There was no "technically" about shot #4 missing the bird.
Since the bird was no longer available to safely engage, it didn't matter what that 4th shot hit (or missed)...assess the lesser miss penalty.
A 5th shot was required to makeup the missed shot on the bird (as allowed in the "4+" stage instructions).

That was the initial assumption until the OP clarified that the 5th shot was not fired.

 

[Tennessee williams]

2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

That's pretty much what I said in the quoted post.

There was no "technically" about shot #4 missing the bird.
Since the bird was no longer available to safely engage, it didn't matter what that 4th shot hit (or missed)...assess the lesser miss penalty.
A 5th shot was required to makeup the missed shot on the bird (as allowed in the "4+" stage instructions).

Correct; but, this whole time I was under the assumption from the OP and the TO the shooter attempted to fire at the 2nd bird with the fourth shot and the shell did not go off, so the shooter loaded rounds 5 and 6 in the shotgun and hit the makeup with one of those. In that case, no need for an extra round down range since the bird was engaged. Correct or naw?

[Tennessee williams]

14 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

Shotgun instructions are for 4 + shots.

Targets are popper targets. Shooter is to shoot a knockdown that throws a clay into the air. Two targets. Any missed birds can be made up on stationary target.

 

14 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

Shooter knockdowns first popper and hits bird.

Good so far

14 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

Then shoots second knockdown but next shot foes not fire. Shooter reloads two shells and shoots stationary target. 

This implies the shooter engaged the bird with the 4th round(that did not fire).

Then the shooter loads rounds 5 and 6 to hit the makeup target. Sounds like a no call to me.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

No.
The 5th round (4th shot fired) was the "bird" shot (miss on the bird) that happened to hit the makeup target.
The (unfired) 6th round should have been on the makeup target to negate that miss...it was NOT  (according to the OP's later statement) = One MISS .
 

 

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

No.
The 5th round (4th shot fired) was the "bird" shot (miss on the bird) that happened to hit the makeup target.
The (unfired) 6th round should have been on the makeup target to negate that miss...it was NOT  (according to the OP's later statement) = One MISS .
 

 

So, it makes no difference that target was engaged with the round that did not go off? 

[Tennessee williams]

Rifle run is such:

9 stationary targets single tapped once then shoot the rifle knockdown. Kd misses can be made up with shotgun.

 

Shooter shoots the 9 stationary targets correctly and jacks out his 10th rifle round. Shooter hits kd with shotgun. What is your call?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

So, it makes no difference that target was engaged with the round that did not go off? 

 

Not in this case.
The only difference was that the bird was no longer "hittable", but the shot must still be fired.
That MISS could then be made up by firing an additional round & hitting the make-up target. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Rifle run is such:

9 stationary targets single tapped once then shoot the rifle knockdown. Kd misses can be made up with shotgun.

 

Shooter shoots the 9 stationary targets correctly and jacks out his 10th rifle round. Shooter hits kd with shotgun. What is your call?

 

No call.
The difference is that the rifle is "pre-loaded" with a fixed number of rounds...the shotgun is not.
The "Shooter's Choice" clarification doc address "jacked out" RIFLE rounds and "dud" revolver round options.
Different rules for different types of firearms (e.g. firing an extra SG round is NOT a "P" as it is for a rifle)

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

No call.
The difference is that the rifle is "pre-loaded" with a fixed number of rounds...the shotgun is not.
The "Shooter's Choice" clarification doc address "jacked out" RIFLE rounds and "dud" revolver round options.
Different rules for different types of firearms (e.g. firing an extra SG round is NOT a "P" as it is for a rifle)

Thank you for clarifying that. I know I'm not the only one that has had that one wrong! Sure would be good if all were the same, but I see now.

Thanks again!

[Captain Bill Burt]

7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

No call.
The difference is that the rifle is "pre-loaded" with a fixed number of rounds...the shotgun is not.
The "Shooter's Choice" clarification doc address "jacked out" RIFLE rounds and "dud" revolver round options.
Different rules for different types of firearms (e.g. firing an extra SG round is NOT a "P" as it is for a rifle)

This is what I missed when I made the call. Thank you PWB, and Purly.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

14 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Not in this case.
The only difference was that the bird was no longer "hittable", but the shot must still be fired.
That MISS could then be made up by firing an additional round & hitting the make-up target. 

How would one determine that this was the necessary course of action by reading the Shooter's Handbook?

 

Used to be that an "unfired round" was one type of 5 second penalty. A "miss" was another type of 5 second penalty. So when the stage instructions said "a miss on the bird could be made up" only a fired round would could actually be made up. 

 

NOW....everything that is a 5 second penalty is defined as a "Miss" including an un-fired round. So if the shooter attempted to fire the round and it did not go off then it is a "miss" and misses could made up on the stationary target. The targets were engaged with 5 rounds.

S1 - Hit

S2 - Hit

S3 - Hit

S4 - Engaged the target and Missed

S5 - Hit

 

IF the shotgun rounds need to be fired for them to be considered engaged then that should be made clear in the SHB.

 

Stan