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Don Jorge

Range Cameras

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Do many ranges have "security cameras?"  When the topic is brought up, some indicate that one reason NOT to have them is that it catches the "mistakes" that we all would make.  The cameras/images would be "evidence" against the club under the right circumstances.

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Yes, there are some, but they do not cover the CAS firing line.

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Don J: 

After many long hours (read that as 'years') of "discussion," the Milan Rifle Club board agreed to the installation of security cameras.  The main dissenting point was that it would make the members feel as if "big brother" was watching them, and would drive them away from rejoining.  After a couple of reported incidents of dangerous behavior, and some obvious damage to facilities, the board finally had had enough, and overruled the few remaining objectors.  Since the installation, no unexplained/unresolved incidents have been reported and shortly after the installation, club membership actually rose by about 100 or so...

Frankly, if a club would lose a couple of members whose gun-handling techniques were dangerous, or who repeatedly/deliberately damaged club property, would that really be considered a loss?

 

CS

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I agree with you, Count Sandor.

Some, though bring up the argument that should an accident occur, images, information, would be used against the club. 

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I have been installing Security Cameras for well over 30 years. The arguments for and against have not changed in that time period.

Most Banks removed their EXTERNAL security cameras years ago because they were sued because it gave their customers a sense of security when making deposits after hours. (Remember, security cameras are not being watched by anyone, just recorded). After several robberies and resulting lawsuits the cameras were removed from the outside.

The installation of security cameras where the incident is observable by the owner or employee carried little risk. If the incident is merely recorded and the business owner has a liability then the risk will probably exceed the owners pocketbook.

At a range, Cameras installed at controlled access points that record members using access cards and recording plate numbers, and inside club houses where there are employees have a place. Cameras that are observing non supervised activity might be a problem unless those cameras are not recording the activity, merely allowing range officers to be more efficient.

If you record it there is a chance it will be used against you.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I have been installing Security Cameras for well over 30 years. The arguments for and against have not changed in that time period.

Most Banks removed their EXTERNAL security cameras years ago because they were sued because it gave their customers a sense of security when making deposits after hours. (Remember, security cameras are not being watched by anyone, just recorded). After several robberies and resulting lawsuits the cameras were removed from the outside.

The installation of security cameras where the incident is observable by the owner or employee carried little risk. If the incident is merely recorded and the business owner has a liability then the risk will probably exceed the owners pocketbook.

At a range, Cameras installed at controlled access points that record members using access cards and recording plate numbers, and inside club houses where there are employees have a place. Cameras that are observing non supervised activity might be a problem unless those cameras are not recording the activity, merely allowing range officers to be more efficient.

If you record it there is a chance it will be used against you.

 

 

 

Not that our society has gone "law-suit" crazy or anything...  :blink:

 

So if they record it and someone can watch the crime and likely do nothing about it, that is good.

 

But if they record it so they can possibly catch a criminal - that is bad.

 

I'm reminded of Cicero, "More laws, less justice."

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12 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I have been installing Security Cameras for well over 30 years. The arguments for and against have not changed in that time period.

Most Banks removed their EXTERNAL security cameras years ago because they were sued because it gave their customers a sense of security when making deposits after hours. (Remember, security cameras are not being watched by anyone, just recorded). After several robberies and resulting lawsuits the cameras were removed from the outside.

The installation of security cameras where the incident is observable by the owner or employee carried little risk. If the incident is merely recorded and the business owner has a liability then the risk will probably exceed the owners pocketbook.

At a range, Cameras installed at controlled access points that record members using access cards and recording plate numbers, and inside club houses where there are employees have a place. Cameras that are observing non supervised activity might be a problem unless those cameras are not recording the activity, merely allowing range officers to be more efficient.

If you record it there is a chance it will be used against you.

 

 

 

I think we are turning the concepts of security and liability on their heads......

 

The idea that a club is potentially exposing itself to legal liability by installing cameras is ass-backwards.  It would be true only if the camera caught the club or its members doing something illegal or wrongful or negligent; if that happened, wouldn't the club want to know about it and do something about it?  The club members cannot hide their collective heads in the sand, pretending that if no one records it, no bad acts occurred.  If you have a facility or personnel problem, get out in front of it and fix it.  If you find that you are responsible for an injury on your grounds, own up to it and resolve it; that's what insurance is for.

 

It is more likely that video evidence will be used to defend the club, rather than harm it.  A member or guest or trespasser will find it harder to blame the club for an injury if there is a decent video of the event and of his/her behavior leading up to it.   My experience has been that chuckleheads ignore cameras, and pull stupid stunts even when one is present.  If that happens, you have irrefutable proof of the non-liability of the club (all else being equal).

 

It is even more likely that videos of shooting facilities will be indispensable in identifying those who maliciously or foolishly damage or steal equipment or improvements.  Again, if you happen to catch a member doing something wrong, you want to film it and use the recording to discipline that member/user, and possibly to pursue monetary damages.  Without the video, it will be a he said/he said scenario; with the video, you have a darned good chance of success.

 

My club has begun installing cameras covering areas where repeated abuse of targets has continued even after posting of restrictions and education efforts, as well as at our entry gate for identification.  It's a shame that it has come to this, but we need to protect our clubs and their facilities; failure to do so will likely lead to their loss.  I will not regret the loss of a few misbehaving members who are basically stealing from you and your compatriots.  Stop it before it gets worse. 

 

LL

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I have seen a lot of very sketchy and stupid things go down at ranges, even members only ranges.  Multiple people walking down range while the range was hot and people were firing, people handling/loading guns at shooting benches while the range was cold and people down range.  unsafe gun handling, someone shooting himself in the foot doing “quick draw”.  Many people  are stupid or have no gun sense.  If having cameras can help you weed out the morons on the range, they are worth having.  

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