Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Looking to purchase current production long range rifles in .38-55 and .45-70 (lever and single). There have been some concerns with rifling and cast bullets. I contacted Winchester and was told all of their rifles have button rifling. How does this impact accuracy? Thoughts and suggestions? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Your good to go with button rifling. Some makes like a fatter bullet than others so when you get your rifles repost for suggestions. There's a ton of knowledge here for you to tap. Also, John Boy and others have posted links to some real good info here in the past. Maybe someone with more time can repost. I'm working around the clock right now and only have a few minutes at a time to be online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 Thanks Michigan Slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 All Pedersoli barrels are match grade ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Slug the barrel so you know what diameter bullets to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 All Pedersoli barrels are match grade ... If your wallet warrants the price, Shiloh barrels are button cut too ... http://www.shilohsharps.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11598 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Pedersoli barrels are machined from a chrome moly alloy having the metalurgical composition called 30Cr Mo4 Uni 7845 which is a patented alloy variation developed by Mauser in the 1930s specially for their new M34 light machinegun which has such a rapid rate of fire. The alloy was designed to prevent or minimize the barrel from "walking" the bullets on the target as the barrel heated up. To my knowledge only Mauser, Sako, Mannlicher and Walther use this expensive alloy which Pedersoli buys. For our action frames ( and other parts such as breech blocks etc.) we use a special alloy which is best suited for the "forging" process we use on ALL our Sharps, Rolling Block, Trapdoor, Colt Lightning and forthcoming HiWall rifles. This alloy is identified as being 18Cr Mo4. This alloy alows what is called "cementation hardening." Which gives a hard wear resistant surface of proper depth, while maintaining a non-brittle softer internal molecular structure necessary on such parts which are subject to shock and high stress loadings repeatedly. This alloy also allows us to produce very colorful case hardened exterior surfaces so desired in fine guns. The alloy can also be finished in standard hot blue/black or "coin" color finishes. Smaller parts are made from equally suitable steel alloys and are properly heat treated by means of induction coil methods and oil or water quenched, according to the desired hardness and type of alloy being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 If someone told you "rifling affects cast bullet accuracy" in Cowboy long range rifles, they were probable referring to Marlin Microgroove rifling, which some cast bullet shooters try to avoid. The alternative is normally called Ballard rifling. Ballard rifling has conventional size lands and grooves for the rifling (maybe a maximum of 4 or 6 grooves), rather than many, small and shallow lands and grooves of a Microgroove barrel (often 16 or more grooves). In fact, Marlin's patent calls for "5 grooves for every 1/10 of an inch bore diameter". It's pretty easy to look at the muzzle of a rifle and see how many grooves make up the rifling. SOME Marlin micro-groove centerfire barrels can be made to shoot cast bullets more accurately by going to an oversize cast bullet (about 0.003" oversize compared to the groove diameter) rather then the common 0.001" over size that cast bullet shooters are accustomed to using. But, all that fiddling around with getting the exact size bullet to fit the barrels certainly aggravates some long range shooters. So, to make things easy, avoid the microgroove barrels. They were developed by Marlin to be faster and easier (AKA cheaper in accounting talk) to make. Conventional (Ballard) rifling can be formed by many techniques. No single one has been found to be way out in front in the accuracy department. Button rifling - a carbide button with "negative" shape of the rifling is pushed or pulled through a barrel to shape the rifling by swaging pressure as the button moves down the barrel Cut rifling - the time-tested way of using a scraping type cutter pulled through the barrel, cutting in one groove on each pass. Multiple passes required. Broach rifling - cut rifling but using a broaching tool that cuts all the grooves simultaneously. Hammer forged rifling - a "negative" pattern is inserted in the barrel and powered hammers slam into the outside of the barrel, forging the rifling by forcing the barrel metal into the pattern. Can be done hot or cold. ECM rifling - electronic discharges cut metal out of the grooves - high tech! Most production barrels today are probably button rifled. But hammer forging is catching up quickly. Most high-dollar target barrels are still cut rifled. You won't find target barrels installed on most Cowboy long range guns until you start spending real money, or find one used where the factory barrel was changed out for a high-end barrel. Here's an informative article on production methods used for several rifling types: https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2019/11/7/3-methods-of-barrel-rifling-pros-vs-cons/ Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 Thanks all for taking time to share useful info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Ruby, Pedersoli makes the barrels for Uberti rifles. Quality for dollar spent ... a Uberi 38-55 Hi wall and Pedersoli 45-70, model of your choice. I would caution on the Pedersoli Quigley ... 15 pound weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 You need to know the rate-of-twist(ROT)on your barrel. So you know what bullet weight vs caliber to work with. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 3 hours ago, John Boy said: Ruby, Pedersoli makes the barrels for Uberti rifles. Quality for dollar spent ... a Uberi 38-55 Hi wall and Pedersoli 45-70, model of your choice. I would caution on the Pedersoli Quigley ... 15 pound weight So any Uberti rifle barrel (rifles sold through Taylor’s, Cimarron) will have a Pedersoli made barrel? Cast bullets perform well in Uberti Hi wall 38-55 and lever .45-70? Thanks for all of your input. R3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 said: So any Uberti rifle barrel (rifles sold through Taylor’s, Cimarron) will have a Pedersoli made barrel? Cast bullets perform well in Uberti Hi wall 38-55 and lever .45-70? Thanks for all of your input. R3 Cast bullets work very well in my Uberti HiWall in 38-55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 42 minutes ago, Hoss said: Cast bullets work very well in my Uberti HiWall in 38-55. Hoss- Do you also shoot lever long range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Yes. I shoot a Uberti Win 76 in 45-60, with a 305 grn cast bullet, 12 grns Unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 I have an Uberti 1885 High Wall in .45-70. It is so accurate with the right cast bullet loads it is scary. As far as I can tell, there is no "dp" mark for Pedersoli on the barrel. Uberti is prominently roll marked, however. Guess this one has an Uberti barrel. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 17 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: I have an Uberti 1885 High Wall in .45-70. It is so accurate with the right cast bullet loads it is scary. As far as I can tell, there is no "dp" mark for Pedersoli on the barrel. Uberti is prominently roll marked, however. Guess this one has an Uberti barrel. Good luck, GJ What about sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Ruby Kate makes an excellent point. Don’t scrimp on sights. My favorites are Kelley sights, MVA a close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ruby Kate Lockhart -R3 said: What about sights? What sights are on it? Nothing really special now - a Lyman 17 hood up front, and a Marbles tang sight. If I wanted to get serious with it, I'd put on a mid-range Soule type vernier rear sight, tune the trigger and probably get Lee Shaver to alter hammer to stay cocked when action closes. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 This may not be the case on all Uberti Highwalls, but all of them I've seen you have to manually cock the hammer. The Browning and Winchester cock when you open the action. Not a huge deal, except at a lot of matches the ties go to the fastest time ,if the number of hits are the same. There are a number of Winchester (Miroku's) and Browning's available. Like previously stated, don't scrimp on sights, my favorites are Lee Shaver and Montana Vintage Arms, with a good globe front sight with interchangeable inserts. Plan on spending $350 + for sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: Uberti Highwalls, ... all of them I've seen you have to manually cock the hammer. To repeat earlier post - Lee Shaver and some other gunsmiths can convert those to stay cocked. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Henry 7046 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Hoss said: Ruby Kate makes an excellent point. Don’t scrimp on sights. My favorites are Kelley sights, MVA a close second. Hoss speaks the truth!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Henry 7046 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 If you want to buy a "turn key" single shot rifle, buy a Browning (or Winchester) BPCR. They come in 40-65, 45-70, or 45-90. They have the right rifling, twist rates (Badger Barrels) for cast bullets and nice soule type sights, right from the factory. But, the rifle has to be a BPCR rifle, and not one of their other single shot rifles. They are the most bang for the buck for single shot cowboy long range rifles, very high quality rifles! And they don't have the shoulder killer crescent butt plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Quote So any Uberti rifle barrel (rifles sold through Taylor’s, Cimarron) will have a Pedersoli made barrel? Ruby, it's my understanding, all the barrels on Uberti's (Mrs Uberiti sold the company to Beretta) are made by Pedersoli Also, let me recap some of your questions: 1. Only lead bullets are legal for SASS 2. If you plan to reload, the 35-55 Ideal 375166 bullet is accurate out to 600yds 2. If you plan to reload, the 45-70 Ideal 457132 Postell is an accurate bullet out to 1000yds 3. For accuracy, you will need a globed foresight with a spirit level and a rear vernier staff sight. The combination for quality sights will cost you over $500 4. Plus, you will need a competent gunsmith to install the sights properly The total package will run $3000 plus ... hope your not getting cold feet to play the infrequent long range matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 A good Pedersoli Sharps, or an Uberti, Browning or Winchester 1885 and a good Winchester 94 will clang steel waaaay out there and cover 99 percent of our long ranges. The key is to find a load that each gun likes, particularly if you are going farther than 300 yards. You don't need to spend a crap ton of money to get started. YOU DO NOT. I cast my own bullets with $20.00 Lee molds, my sights on my 74 are Pedersoli for 200.00. It fit my budget and does better than I can. A good Sharps .45-70 with good sights: $1500.00 A good Winchester 94 .38-55 with good sight: $1300.00 An 1885 .45-70 with good sight: $1700.00 All pricing approximate but pretty close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.