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irish ike, SASS #43615

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Did the gun ever stop moving or was it in continuous movement from the time the shooter let go of the gun?

 

If it never quit moving after the shooter released the gun then it is NOT a slip and fall.....it is a dropped gun. Did a prop failure cause the gun to remain in continuous movement? No = SDQ

 

Stan

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On 7/18/2019 at 10:42 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't think there is any consensus that the table was in fact unsafe.

 

I just want to be clear.  I did not say there was. In fact, I said the consensus is that the table was fine.  I'm not sure anyone here has argued that the table was unsafe.  If they did, it was at the beginning and I forgot about it.  I'm only saying that the PM must have thought it was unsafe.  He had to; as that's the only legitimate reason to move the table after the shooting started. 

 

As for slip and fall vs dropped.  Now that I've been reminded of vertical staging I see that this wasn't the intention of the rule.  So I guess anytime a gun bounces it's got to be called a drop because it didn't come to rest exactly where the shooter intended.  Either we allow for all legal final locations or we call any loss of contact with the prop after release a drop. "Grounded" is, generally speaking, a legal staging location. 

 

I'm fine with calling every bounce a drop.  From a safety standpoint, anytime the gun is bouncing there's a chance it will wind up pointing in an unsafe direction.  A much greater chance than if the gun is placed in it's re-staging area. 

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So I guess anytime a gun bounces it's got to be called a drop because it didn't come to rest exactly where the shooter intended.  Either we allow for all legal final locations or we call any loss of contact with the prop after release a drop. "Grounded" is, generally speaking, a legal staging location. 

 

 

That's a stretch and good luck with that.

Did the stage instructions say to restage on the table? If in the process of restaging, the guns landed on the ground then its an SDQ, the ground is NOT a legal restaging point.

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On 7/19/2019 at 3:44 PM, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

I just want to be clear.  I did not say there was. In fact, I said the consensus is that the table was fine.  I'm not sure anyone here has argued that the table was unsafe.  If they did, it was at the beginning and I forgot about it.  I'm only saying that the PM must have thought it was unsafe.  He had to; as that's the only legitimate reason to move the table after the shooting started. 

 

As for slip and fall vs dropped.  Now that I've been reminded of vertical staging I see that this wasn't the intention of the rule.  So I guess anytime a gun bounces it's got to be called a drop because it didn't come to rest exactly where the shooter intended.  Either we allow for all legal final locations or we call any loss of contact with the prop after release a drop. "Grounded" is, generally speaking, a legal staging location. 

 

I'm fine with calling every bounce a drop.  From a safety standpoint, anytime the gun is bouncing there's a chance it will wind up pointing in an unsafe direction.  A much greater chance than if the gun is placed in it's re-staging area. 

I don't know about you but I don't pick an EXACT location on a table to place my gun......my intention is to place the gun on the table....anywhere on the table that is safe.


 

Quote


So all the shooters had to say was that they INTENDED for the rifle to be on the ground in the gap and it's no penalty?  Cause unless the stage instructions say different, the ground is a legal staging surface.  If it does say they have to use the table, then it's just a P for staging in the wrong place. 

 

I think it would be a pretty far stretch for a shooter to state that they intended for the gun to be on the ground via falling off the table.....nor would it seem reasonable to call releasing a gun several feet off the ground a safe way to place a gun on the ground. The TO could apply "Unsafe Firearm Handling" in that last instance which is also a SDQ.

 

Just because a dropped firearm ends us pointing in a safe direction on the ground doesn't excuse the shooter from the penalty of dropping the gun. We all have a responsibility to handle our firearms safely.....for our personal safety and more importantly the safety of those around us.

 

Stan

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On 7/19/2019 at 4:22 PM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

That's a stretch and good luck with that.

Did the stage instructions say to restage on the table? If in the process of restaging, the guns landed on the ground then its an SDQ, the ground is NOT a legal restaging point.

The ground actually is ok to restage your guns as long as its done safely....

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I know it is, but not if the stage instructions say to restage on a table. OR... if it was DROPPED on the ground.

Dropped gun = SDQ ;)

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The only time "on the ground" (literally) is considered a legitimate option for restaging a firearm is in event of a declared malfunction with no other safe location readily available: 

Quote

CRO will allow the shooter to make the malfunctioning firearm safe, preferably on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground, etc.), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to "hand off" the firearm. 

RO2 p.8

 

That does NOT APPLY to restaging during stage engagements with functional firearms (unless specifically stated in the stage instructions).
The "make safe" default notwithstanding.

Bending over to set a firearm on the ground when there is a prop upon which to restage it would be ridiculous.
The idea that simply DROPPING a firearm on THE GROUND is allowed without penalty just because "the ground" is mentioned as a safe location in regard to restaging malfunctioning firearms is unreasonable as well.

REF: RO3

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Once a firearm is released and at rest, it would take a force to move it.  This could be caused by a bump, either the TO or shooter, or by gravity, such as due to prop failure. This is the area of struggle. Both would come under the area of slip and fall.  It seems to me the TO would need to make the call; and if the shooter disagrees it would go to the Match Director.  If it was a prop failure then there would be grounds for a re-shoot with out penalty.  I guess this is where the 170 comes into play.  

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There are very few true slip and falls. T-Bone used to have a moving bridge. If a shooter staged their rifle and moved down the stage to shoot the pistols and the movement of the bridge caused the rifle to fall without breaking the 170, that would be a slip and fall. Slip and fall only comes into play if the gun falls with no influence from the shooter. Gun dropped to the table that bounces off of the table is a dropped gun. Even if the gun stays on the table and later falls off with the shooter still standing there they influenced the drop. Bumping the table or butt of the gun causing it to fall is still a dropped gun.

 

This is covered in both ROI and ROII .  

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