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Subdeacon Joe

Got a Spare $4.5 Million?

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3 minutes ago, Chantry said:

We had young, fairly inexperienced pilots flying high performance aircraft and there were any number of aircraft that would kill you if you made a mistake.  You've already mentioned the Corsair.  The B-26 landing characteristics killed a bunch of pilots in the beginning.  The P-47, P-38 & P-51 (and probably the Corsair) would kill you if you didn't pull out of a dive before the controls became ineffective.

 

I won't pretend to understand the science, but my understanding is that all three could experience "mach tuck" and in a high speed dive, compressibility could tear the tails off of all three as well. I've never read anything about the Corsair in that regard, though I wouldn't be surprised, given its speed capabilities. One of the "faults" I mentioned of the P-38 was the fact that it was the first aircraft we fielded that was capable of getting into the transonic speed range in a dive, which would freeze controls at altitude. They would often become operational again once they reached denser air at lower altitudes, but this didn't stop many from flying into the ground if the pilot didn't stay with it. Robin Olds discussed running into this issue when flying a P-38 and diving to try to help a P-51 being attacked by two German fighters. Dive flaps were developed which solved the problem for the P-38. They were to be retrofitted onto aircraft already in the ETO, but a Spitfire accidentally shot down the cargo aircraft carrying the kits.

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1 hour ago, DocWard said:

 

I won't pretend to understand the science, but my understanding is that all three could experience "mach tuck" and in a high speed dive, compressibility could tear the tails off of all three as well. I've never read anything about the Corsair in that regard, though I wouldn't be surprised, given its speed capabilities. One of the "faults" I mentioned of the P-38 was the fact that it was the first aircraft we fielded that was capable of getting into the transonic speed range in a dive, which would freeze controls at altitude. They would often become operational again once they reached denser air at lower altitudes, but this didn't stop many from flying into the ground if the pilot didn't stay with it. Robin Olds discussed running into this issue when flying a P-38 and diving to try to help a P-51 being attacked by two German fighters. Dive flaps were developed which solved the problem for the P-38. They were to be retrofitted onto aircraft already in the ETO, but a Spitfire accidentally shot down the cargo aircraft carrying the kits.

 

I don't understand the science and math behind it either, however from what I've read is that if you got certain aircraft (P-47, P-38 & later models of the Spitfire) above a certain speed in a dive, either the controls would stay locked all the way down OR the pilot wasn't strong enough to move the controls.

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Mom flew Corsairs also. I remember her saying the P-51 was way less forgiving, and needed a 'light-hand' on the stick.

Mom came over to the WASP, from the WAFS. 

OLG

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I could watch gun camera footage of Jugs shooting up steam trains all day long. Is that wrong?

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16 hours ago, Chantry said:

I tend to agree, but my favorite will always be the P-47.  Almost every fighter has it strengths and weakness and if you play to your plane's strengths and hopefully the enemies weaknesses, you'll usually come out ahead.  As an example, the P-47's strengths were it's heavy firepower, very good roll rate and the ability to dive away from any other propeller plane in the war.  Robert Johnson used the roll rate to compensate for the superior turning ability of the German by flipping his P-47 into a roll into the opposite direction of the turn and then sliding back behind the German planes.   Fighting a Zero, a pilot would need to keep his speed up and rely on the superior firepower and the ability to break away by going into a dive.

 

First off, I'm not a pilot or I would probably understand this.  I've heard the roll rate of the P-47 could be used to compensate for a slower turn rate, but, how does rolling left when the target is turning right keep you on it's "six"?  My logic says that would put you further behind the target and further outside it's turn.  Does anybody want to take a crack at explaining that to this farm boy?  Diagrams would be great if you can manage to do that in this format.

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

p.s.  I have a hard time picking a favorite.  My first love was the P-40, then the P-38, Corsair, P-47 and Spitfire.   Also the German's 109 and 190.  I'm not knocking the P-51 it just never "did" anything for me.  Like the Hurricane, good plane, but not a great looker.

 

p.p.s.  If I had an extra 4.5 mil burning a hole in my pocket I think I'd buy a tank or an armored car.  At least I could actually drive one of those.

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44 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I could watch gun camera footage of Jugs shooting up steam trains all day long. Is that wrong?

 

Nope. I watched gun camera footage of my boss's dad strafing. He shot a lot of stuff that I'm sure was there but my boss and I couldn't see, like rivers, tree lines and the like, but a few trains as well. I recall one bit where he actually appeared to knock over an engine as steam and smoke poured from it.

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30 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

First off, I'm not a pilot or I would probably understand this.  I've heard the roll rate of the P-47 could be used to compensate for a slower turn rate, but, how does rolling left when the target is turning right keep you on it's "six"?  My logic says that would put you further behind the target and further outside it's turn.  Does anybody want to take a crack at explaining that to this farm boy?  Diagrams would be great if you can manage to do that in this format.

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

p.s.  I have a hard time picking a favorite.  My first love was the P-40, then the P-38, Corsair, P-47 and Spitfire.   Also the German's 109 and 190.  I'm not knocking the P-51 it just never "did" anything for me.  Like the Hurricane, good plane, but not a great looker.

 

p.p.s.  If I had an extra 4.5 mil burning a hole in my pocket I think I'd buy a tank or an armored car.  At least I could actually drive one of those.

There is a vertical component to the manuever I described, hopefully this link can describe it better then I can:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Lag_pursuit

 

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The P-47's roll rate and dive capability were most effective when a bad guy was trying to shoot you in the a**. A lot of pilots survived those encounters where they might not have in another plane.

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On 2/13/2018 at 2:01 PM, Chantry said:

There is a vertical component to the manuever I described, hopefully this link can describe it better then I can:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Lag_pursuit

 

I'm still not sure I really understand how that works (maybe another couple cups of coffee will help), but it seems to make sense.  I guess it's a good thing I'm not a fighter pilot.  I think I'd get my behind kicked.

 

I'll just have to stick with appreciating the beauty of the planes.

 

Angus

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On 2/13/2018 at 4:10 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

The P-47's roll rate and dive capability were most effective when a bad guy was trying to shoot you in the a**. A lot of pilots survived those encounters where they might not have in another plane.

 Robert Johnson who shot down 27 Germans while flying the P-47 used the roll rate and the dive capability offensively.  When the Germans first encountered the P-47's they would try and dive away from P-47, they learned the hard way that was a major mistake.   As for the roll rate, Johnson related one encounter where the German pilot went into a hard turn and started turning inside Johnson who rolled the P-47 the opposite way and ended up behind the German again.  Johnson stated the German pilot had a shocked look on his face as he had thought the P-47 had pulled a tighter turn then his plane had, which the German pilot (rightfully) considered impossible.

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10 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

I'm still not sure I really understand how that works (maybe another couple cups of coffee will help), but it seems to make sense.  I guess it's a good thing I'm not a fighter pilot.  I think I'd get my behind kicked.

 

I'll just have to stick with appreciating the beauty of the planes.

 

Angus

 

Think of it as kicking a rear wheel drive car into a skid to make a turn the suspension wouldn't normally allow.

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I mentioned I had just finished a P-47 model build. I had some issues and it didn't turn out as well as I would have liked, but I thought I would go ahead and toss up a couple of pictures.

 

IMG_0056.JPG

IMG_0059.JPG

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7 minutes ago, Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795 said:

One of the earlier "Razorback" models, Doc. looks good to me;):blush:

 

Thanks. I am generally happy with it. I tried a few new to me techniques, and some of them didn't work out as well as I would like. They will take practice to improve. I had a couple of issues with decals, but like I said, I'm generally happy, and proud to put it on my shelf. 

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6 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Looks like 1:48 scale? Been wondering where you display your models Doc. Need some pics!

 

Yep, just about the only scale I do for aircraft, unless somebody buys me a different scale as a gift. Cars and trucks are 1:25 or 1:24. I don't have a a whole lot on display at the moment, a little over a dozen, because some have been destroyed in moves, others have been given away. Don't ask how many I have in my stash waiting to be built!

My small Canon died, and I haven't gotten a DSLR to replace it, so I am still experimenting with my phone to try to get some decent pics. Here are a few, though.
 

Firebird A.JPG

P-39 C.JPG

Scout C.JPG

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7 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Nice! P-39 is one of my favorite planes

 

I've always liked the looks of the P-39, and it was a better plane than people give it credit for. Although people associate the A-10 with the P-47, largely because of the name and the robustness of the platform, the P-39 bore striking similarities to the Warthog, in that it was designed around the concept of a large caliber main gun, and was itself a robust platform. I've read that so long as a pilot stayed below 15,000 feet (no turbocharger) and kept his speed up, it was quite agile.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Chantry said:

 

Think of it as kicking a rear wheel drive car into a skid to make a turn the suspension wouldn't normally allow.

 

That's sort of what I had envisioned.  Kicking the rudder to skid/slide changing facing without actually changing the direction (at least initially) of the plane?  I still don't understand how the roll/altitude change plays into it all.  I think what I need is to talk to a fighter pilot at one of the local air shows and have him explain it to me using those hand gestures they are so well known for.  :)

 

Angus

p.s.  Before anybody gets all excited, I do understand that just "kicking the rudder" will not cause a plane to roll. 

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Rudder by itself won't roll the plane completely (at least not under control), but it will make the plane bank and turn. By kicking say, right rudder, the plane will yaw right. That means the left wing is now traveling forward faster than the right wing. This causes an increase in lift on the left wing (relative to the right wing), causing it to rise and bank the plane into a right turn.

 

One of my flight instructors showed me how. Hands off the stick, all I was allowed to touch were throttle and rudder pedals. It's a very sloppy way to turn, but it works. Feels weird too.

 

When United airlines L1011 lost all control of its ailerons, elevator and rudder, the pilots used differential thrust from the underwing engines to simulate a rudder. It was an amazing feat of airmanship that saved many lives.

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8 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

When United airlines L1011 lost all control of its ailerons, elevator and rudder, the pilots used differential thrust from the underwing engines to simulate a rudder. It was an amazing feat of airmanship that saved many lives.

 

I'm drawing a blank on this one. sounds like Flight 232 that crashed in Souix City, Iowa, but that was a DC-10.

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19 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Yup, you're right Doc. I get those two confused all the time. :blush:

 

Not a problem. I had to go double check, myself. It has been a long time.

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