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Irish-Pat

Army's new Sig 320 9mm

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Just conduct a survey on the SASS Forum about what handgun members will choose if in combat. You are going to get answers from the S&W Model 10 38 Special revolver, various manufacturers .357, .44 and 45 ACP, 45 Colt revolvers, all sorts of semi-autos, and handguns in .223 such as the SIG 556 and AR.

 

And then you are going to have s group that want a handgun such as a J-Frame revolver that is small enough to go everywhere with them including to the toilet.

 

I wonder how many people that criticize the M-9 have spent much time learning how about it and how to shoot it. It has a far longer production history than the 1911 and has been as much combat as the 1911.

 

The simple fact is that the services don't want it and the special ops folks who are more likely than anyone to actually use it have been leading the charge to get rid of it for over 20 years. Do you know something that they don't?

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Never mind...life's to short to argue over inane things.

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748
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Huh?

 

I have one made in 1913. Used it at End of the Trail last year. Colt is STILL making them in one form or another.

 

The M9 is no where near over 100 years old, and even though I have one, I doubt very much if after it is itself over 100 that my theoretical grandson will wanna shoot it in a competition.

 

 

Stay focused. We are discussing use of the 1911, 1911A1 and Beretta M9 by the U.S. Armed Forces.

 

The 1911 was only made until 1924.

 

The 1911A1 was adopted in 1924 and made until 1945. The bulk of it's production was during World War 2. Production ended in 1945.

 

In 2012 the Marines adopted a special model 1911 45 acp which were replaced only three years later in 2105 by the Glock 19 9mm.

 

"The Marine Corps has authorized MARSOC operators to carry Glock pistols, since many of the elite outfit's members prefer the popular 9mm over the custom .45 pistols the service bought them in 2012."

 

The commercially made 1911 handguns available today are highly refined version of the original design and sold in the civilian market.

 

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/19/marines-allow-operators-to-choose-glocks-over-marsoc-45.html

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The simple fact is that the services don't want it and the special ops folks who are more likely than anyone to actually use it have been leading the charge to get rid of it for over 20 years. Do you know something that they don't?

 

This is only your opinion.

 

See my comment above. The Marines only kept their custom made 1911's from 2012 - 2015 and have replaced it with the Glock 19. Special Ops and other highly trained units such as the Green Berets and Navy SEALS should get whatever weapons meet their mission requirements best. This includes such weapons as bow and arrows and crossbows. However all of the Special Forces in the entire U.S. Armed Forces comprised a very small number of personnel in our Armed Forces.

 

In fact the Marines were unhappy with the custom 1911 they adopted in 2012;

 

"The Marines chose to stick with the 1911 design for MARSOC. Marine testers placed a high priority on accuracy. The winner of the 2012 contract had to be capable of putting five-shot groups on target that "didn't exceed four inches by four inches at 25 yards" from an unsupported firing position, Marine officials maintain.

 

But military pistol experts maintain that the 1911 design, while extremely accurate, requires more training and care than other modern tactical pistols.

 

Young operators have had trouble with the 1911's beavertail grip safety, according to one former Marine weapons instructor who trained MARSOC members.

 

Many shooters wearing gloves tend to grip the 1911 too high and do not properly disengage the beavertail grip safety, so the pistol won't fire, he said. A lot of professional shooters who run custom 1911s will disable that beavertail grip safety to avoid this problem, he added.

 

The 1911 design is also known for feed-way stoppages, a malfunction caused when a round gets stuck feeding into the chamber, experts said. Horizontal and vertical stovepipes – types of malfunctions that occur when an empty shell casing gets caught in the ejection port – are also a problem with the 1911 design."

 

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/19/marines-allow-operators-to-choose-glocks-over-marsoc-45.html

 

A bit of history about the 1911A1 military use.

 

Prior to the outbreak of W.W.II the Army was looking for a replacement of the 1911A1. When W.W.II started there was a massive demand of all arms, first by the British and then our military when we entered the war. The main goal of the U.S. was to produce massive amounts of weapons as quickly as possible. The was little development of other small arms during the war. The M-3 is the only one that comes to mind.

 

As early as 1947 after W.W. II the Army conducted tests to replace the 1911A1. With budget cutbacks and the huge number of serviceable handguns in inventory it was decided against adopting a new type of handgun.

 

However the SIG is apparently being adopted for widespread issued in the U.S. Army. My objection is it does not meet all of the requirements of the MHS Program. (See Post # 25).

 

Army brass is doing what Army brass does best. Spend millions of unnecessary dollars for new toys. The Beretta M9A3 addresses most the complaints about the M9. It can be phased in as M9's wear out. Armorers are already trained and logistical system is already place.

 

In addition how practical is it really going to be to switch out frames, especially in the field?

 

Is the armorer going to switch grip frames during routine training and range qualifications? Non-combat range qualifications usually involve guns being issued from the Armory.

 

In the battlefield. Soldier A with size large hands is been issued the gun for todays mission and soldier B with size small hands is going to be issued the same handgun tomorrow. Will different size frames even be available in forward units?

 

And, most importantly, our troops are still the same 9mm NATO ball ammunition.

Edited by Seldom Seen #16162

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This is only your opinion.

 

See my comment above. The Marines only kept their custom made 1911's from 2012 - 2015 and have replaced it with the Glock 19. Special Ops and other highly trained units such as the Green Berets and Navy SEALS should get whatever weapons meet their mission requirements best. This includes such weapons as bow and arrows and crossbows. However all of the Special Forces in the entire U.S. Armed Forces comprised a very small number of personnel in our Armed Forces.

 

In fact the Marines were unhappy with the custom 1911 they adopted in 2012;

 

...

 

However the SIG is apparently being adopted for widespread issued in the U.S. Army. My objection is it does not meet all of the requirements of the MHS Program. (See Post # 25).

 

Army brass is doing what Army brass does best. Spend millions of unnecessary dollars for new toys. The Beretta M9A3 addresses most the complaints about the M9. It can be phased in as M9's wear out. Armorers are already trained and logistical system is already place.

 

In addition how practical is it really going to be to switch out frames, especially in the field?

 

Is the armorer going to switch grip frames during routine training and range qualifications? Non-combat range qualifications usually involve guns being issued from the Armory.

 

In the battlefield. Soldier A with size large hands is been issued the gun for todays mission and soldier B with size small hands is going to be issued the same handgun tomorrow. Will different size frames even be available in forward units?

 

And, most importantly, our troops are still the same 9mm NATO ball ammunition.

 

 

My opinion is backed by having been in and around the Marine Corps from long before the M9 right up to today and almost no one has a kind word to say about the M9. That was an acquisition based purely on politics and not the needs of the warfighter. I could count on one hand the few that I've seen say kind things about it and statistically they are unicorns. It's time to get rid of it.

 

I am also a member of the Quantico Shooting Club and have run and participated in many USPSA and Steel Challenge matches. I almost never see a Beretta at those matches and it's not without reason. The current crop of Marines shoot striker-fired guns at these matches and the Single Stack class has dwindled almost out of existence. The rare birds that do show up with a Beretta in Production class do so because it's the only gun they know and they generally show up a couple of matches later with a Glock or an XD because they've now seen what a disadvantage the M9 puts them in.

 

I'm not trying to argue for 1911's - that was my gun of choice for many years and I still have a special place in my heart for them, but technology has passed them by and the "modern tactical pistols" that you refer to are striker-fired guns, not single or double action guns like the 1911 or the M9. The SA/DA's day is over.

 

Also, I'm not arguing about caliber; the 9x19 NATO is the standard and nothing any of us say will change that.

 

I think we are in agreement that the Sig was not a wise choice. My youngest son is with the BOP and was trained at FLETC, so he has the training you have referred to previously and he also works a second job selling guns. Like me, he has great respect for Sig's quality of construction, but he does not have a high opinion of their latest efforts to compete with Glock and SA in the striker-fired market and he particularly dislikes the 320.

 

My personal favorite is the XD Mod.2 because it fits my hand perfectly, I like the grip angle a bit better than a Glock and when fired it falls right back into proper sight alignment. However, I totally support MARSOC's choice of the Glock 19 because anyone can shoot it (my wife has one), it's as close to idiot-proof as a gun can get and it's extremely low maintenance. PD's across America have gone to Glocks for good reason and it's time that the military take politics out of the equation.

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The ability to switch between grip frames is being way over-hyped imho. From the linked article;

 

"If you want to change from a 9mm to a 45ACP gun you don’t need a new firearm, just pay $350 to your parts supplier of choice and a conversion kit will arrive at your doorstep with everything you need to get running with your new chosen caliber…no FFL required. Or if you want to go from a full size gun to a compact carry version, $400 for a new barrel and grip is all you need."

 

An additional $350 and $400.00 puts me in the used gun market. Even if I have to add some change I have two complete guns. As a admitted gun crank give me two handguns over one any day of the week.

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The ability to switch between grip frames is being way over-hyped imho. From the linked article;

 

"If you want to change from a 9mm to a 45ACP gun you don’t need a new firearm, just pay $350 to your parts supplier of choice and a conversion kit will arrive at your doorstep with everything you need to get running with your new chosen caliber…no FFL required. Or if you want to go from a full size gun to a compact carry version, $400 for a new barrel and grip is all you need."

 

An additional $350 and $400.00 puts me in the used gun market. Even if I have to add some change I have two complete guns. As a admitted gun crank give me two handguns over one any day of the week.

 

My comment isn't intended to be pro/con Beretta, 1911, etc.....

 

But I will comment on Seldom Seen's post about the cost of switching calibers, gun sizes, etc.... on the P320.

 

As mentioned before, I like BOTH of mine. And SS is correct in the fact that the cost factor of a new gun vs. buying barrel/grip from SIG was the exact reason I bought a whole new pistol.

 

Paying out $350-400 was just too close to the price of a NEW gun and I choose to buy a new P320 in .357 SIG to go with my 9mm.

 

 

..........Widder

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Let me add that I really like SIG handguns. A P239 9mm is my primary edc.

 

Nor am I bashing the new 320. The modular feature may prove to be a very successful design.

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I love 1911s and Sigs, and I also have two different 9mm s. I really like the 45 the best. I am sure a lot of you know this little bit of Pistol history, but when the USA was involved in the Spanish -American War in 1898, the standard US side arm was the "new" double action Colt 38 Special. When the Army got to the southern part of the Philippines and encountered some very tough Natives called Moros, who had big knives and fought with all their body and soul. Even putting three or four rounds of the 38 s into the enemy would not stop them. Although the Moros would later die, they would often have enough strength to use their Machetes on our Men.

 

An urgent call went out to Army Ordnance and they pulled hundreds of SAA, 7 1/2 Colt 45 s out of storage, cut two inches off the Barrel, and sent them as fast as possible to the Army in the Pacific. Guess what? The big ole 45 s would lay the Moros out with one well placed shot. So as some of you have stated: the 45 is the MAN!! Cheers, Hoss C.

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