De-cocking Quandry?

[Nate Clayton, SASS #63196]

Left Coast Attitude. What if I am standing facing south? Guess its a perspective thing...

 

Great explanation, btw ...PWB. As usual.

 

-Nate

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I'm glad I read this thread. I similarly failed to get a basic point across to the gentleman in another thread. I simply could not understand most of his rebuttal arguments. As far as people having a "left coast" attitude this is a written forum. People can only be judged by what they type and how they convey their message.

If you're referring to our discussion in another thread, I understood every single word you wrote. I just didn't agree with them.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

If you're referring to our discussion in another thread, I understood every single word you wrote. I just didn't agree with them.

I wasn't referring to you.

[Griff]

Hammer down is safe .

With a live round under the hammer and an obstructed bore... it's very potentially a blown up gun, THAT's what it is. A loaded, cocked revolver on a stable bench with no one touching it, frankly, is ever so much safer. Sorry if that upsets you. I've seen too many times a shooter trying to fumble their way thru stages, under the best of circumstance to adamantly NOT want to see that same person trying the decock a revolver with a live round under the hammer and an obstructed bore. Trying to hurriedly drop the hammer and NOT set off the round under the hammer and proceeding to recoup what's left of the shooter's stage at this juncture in NOT in ANYONE'S best interests. Not the shooter, not the RO/TO and most assuredly, not the gun. Accidents are generally the result of rushed, hurried, unpracticed actions. We joke about the one thing during a match that can disconnect your brain... yeah, that buzzer on the timer thing! But, it's not really a joke, we've all seen it, if not experienced it.

 

There are potentially 4 Stage Disqualifications in this situation... and remember, any two will gain the shooter a Match DQ.

THEY ARE: 1 - A cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand. 2 - Unsafe firearm handling... 3 - Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a loaded round. 4 - De-cocking a revolver, rifle or hammered shotgun with a live round under the hammer.

 

These are the violations that are obviated when the shooter declares a firearm "Malfunction." And, as PWB so eloquently described, a squib qualifies in our sport as a malfunction. 'Nuff said.

[Griff]

I'm glad I read this thread. I similarly failed to get a basic point across to the gentleman in another thread. I simply could not understand most of his rebuttal arguments. As far as people having a "left coast" attitude this is a written forum. People can only be judged by what they type and how they convey their message.

PWB has an absolutely wonderful graphic about the futility of trying to argue with some folks... He's sent to me on a couple of occasions when I was frustrated...

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Most Wanted, I could be wrong, but I think I understand what is tripping you up regarding this subject. Essentially, it is the fact that the gun itself has not technically malfunctioned. Instead, it is the ammo that has malfunctioned. Here is what I don’t believe is coming across: Ammunition malfunctions that result in guns that are unable to be fired, either for mechanical or safety reasons, are considered gun malfunctions and may be declared as such.

 

Let me give you another example: I bet you have seen what happens when round with a split case gets loaded into a rifle. The magazine spring pushes the bullet into the case making the case too short, the next round tries to come into the carrier with the bad round and locks up the rifle. Technically this is an ammo malfunction, yet what is left to do but to discard the rifle…which has a round in the carrier…which would typically result in a MSV? Do we give the shooter a MSV? No, but they do receive the misses for the rounds left in the “malfunctioning” rifle…just like we do for the discarded “malfunctioning” pistol with the squib in it.

 

Now, how have we come to this clarification of what is a malfunctioning gun/pistol/rifle? The answer is in a very similar way to how the laws are made by Congress and ultimately interpreted, if need be, by the Supreme Court. In CAS, the Territorial Governors are our Congress with input from shooters everywhere. The Wild Bunch is the Executive Branch with a little oomph as they have complete veto and law writing ability if they choose. Our Supreme Court is the RO Committee. When questions of interpretation come up, the RO Committee meets (via email, etc.) and a decision is made. Those decisions are worded on the Wire by a member of the RO Committee, Palewolf Brunell. It’s sometimes important to remember that laws/rules do not necessarily get rewritten, they just get their intention clarified.

 

Most things that come up on the Wire have long ago been discussed and intention decided. When there appears to be a fairly common misunderstanding of a rule(s), wording changes are made in the RO Handbooks to further clarify for everyone, not just those who read the Wire. Take a look at page 4 of RO1. The yellow highlighted words are an example of such.

 

Now back to regularly scheduled programming; what to do with the “malfunctioning” pistol. The quandary of the situation, as you can tell from the multiple ways that people have answered how they would handle the situation, is what is the safest thing to do? There is no single answer that will eliminate all possibilities of a bad situation becoming worse, but I believe some are better than others.

 

The typical situation where a TO would tell a shooter to lower their hammer involves a gun minus a squib, so if their thumb slipped off and a round goes downrange, muzzle direction is maintained, no big deal. Although we have seen the fast shooter have a squib and fire another round before they can be stopped and clear the squib in the process, we know that it could result in an exploded gun. I think everyone would agree that anything that can be done to reduce the possibility of firing a round behind a squib is a good thing.

 

I am firmly in the camp that prefers that a malfunctioning gun (using gun/ammo definition) be grounded. While nobody prefers that one to be put down with the hammer back (thus the rule), it is at least pointed down range AND it can be dealt with later when things are a bit calmer and minds are clearer. My experience has been that when the engine runs off the tracks (one thing goes wrong), the rest of the cars follow, so asking someone to decock a pistol, something they don’t do typically do, with a potential squib in the pistol is a risk that is not necessary. Ground the gun with the hammer back if it’s already back.

 

If I’m the TO, I certainly don’t want it. The shooter might drop it handing it to me. I might drop it. It’s just not necessary. I’m busy trying to keep the rest of the train on track. The engine’s gone. Save the passengers! We’ll come back later, talk about the wreck and hope we’ve been Casey Jones for the day. J

 

Happy shooting to everyone.

[Null N. Void]

Well said, Buck.

 

SBS

[Krazy Kajun]

In Buck's post above he mentioned the fact that a fast shooter might have a squib and then "clear" it with the next round....or the gun could explode...just depends on how "stuck" the squib is.

 

My question....if you are the shooter and you get a squib but already have the hammer cocked for the next shot before your brain realizes this fact...and there is a prop in front of you what are the best options?

 

Fast shooter knows he has a squib and knows he has the gun cocked....is the best thing for him to do

1. Declare the malfunction and ground the cocked gun on the prop and move on so as to not take any more time than he needs to in order to deal with the malfunctioned pistol.

2. Or ask the TO for permission to decock the pistol and, if the TO approves, safely decock the pistol and then ground it. This option results in more time lost by the shooter.

 

Second option takes more time but would result in a malfunctioned pistol grounded without being cocked. First option is faster for the shooter but results in a cocked malfunctioning pistol that has to be dealt with by someone other than the shooter (unless the TO allows the shooter to decock it after the shooting has completed) In either case the shooter must have someone else to carry the malfunctioning pistol to the LTO.

 

Either would be valid choices...just wondering what the "village wisdom" would be.

 

Kajun

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Asked and answered.

 

If you want to know the applicable rules, just read PaleWolf's posts.