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Korupt Karl

Conceal Carry Question

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We seem to have gotten off topic a bit, but the discussion is great. Mathew, thank you for interesting read...I too, would like to know your source as I would like to reference it in CCW classes. Sgt Smoke, I appreciate your input from the realistic view.

 

Friday night I was with four fellow LEO's when we went to a residence to apprehend a man who had stabbed his brother. He was confronted by three officers with their AR's and two with Glock 21's. He surrendered with no resistance. It was reported that at a previous call he had fired an AK47 and we were ready for anything.

 

I have not been in a firefight in civilian life nor have I ever had to draw or fire a firearm at another individual since Vietnam. I experienced a lot of the feelings that I had 43 years ago. As a reserve officer I will always be traveling with a merit officer and usually only 2 or 3 shifts per month.

 

I find that from the aspect of law enforcement that you are constantly going through the ups and downs. When you pull someone over or go on a call you are up...afterward you go back down....on a given shift it will happen over and over again. I have a lot of respect for those of you who do this day in, day out.....and I thank you for your service.

 

As a civilian with a concealed weapon we need to be prepared and should be playing scenarios in our minds of what would I do in a particular situation....not to the point of obsession, but just to think about how you would handle a "what if". Carrying concealed is a lot of responsibility. I know most of your are prepared, but as they say with Cowboy shooting....PRACTICE...

 

But, getting back to the original question "DO YOU CARRY ADDITIONAL AMMO WHEN YOU CONCEALED?" . I think, from the feedback that it is safe to conclude that the majority of us do. Thank you all for your continued input.

 

KK

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...That is interesting and informative reading. Where did you find it?...

 

Do a web search for "The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis"

 

I'll trying to trace it back to the Aurthur.

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"DO YOU CARRY ADDITIONAL AMMO WHEN YOU CONCEALED?"

 

I carry no additional ammo, just a filled-up Glock 27.

 

Spittoon

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There are only two occasions when one can have too much ammo-

1. When on fire

2. When swimming

:):FlagAm:

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Carrying concealed is a lot of responsibility. I know most of your are prepared, but as they say with Cowboy shooting....PRACTICE...

 

But, getting back to the original question "DO YOU CARRY ADDITIONAL AMMO WHEN YOU CONCEALED?" . I think, from the feedback that it is safe to conclude that the majority of us do. Thank you all for your continued input.

 

KK

This is a good topic and discussion so far. Totally off cowboy, but what the heck.

 

To answer your new qeustion...... No I do not typically carry additional ammo "on my body". My typical CCW carries 13-15 rds in the magazine. The times I do carry an extra mag is to balance out the coat so it isn't loopsided. if you know what I mean. On occasion, I carry a 380 and in that mode, it is in a usually safer (I said safer not absolute) environment and usual clothing is very light and doing good to get the 380 concealed w/o trying to get the extra mag concealed as well. Yep, a compromise and I accept that risk, or I wouldn't go in equiped with such a light weight gun/ammo combo.

 

Just my option,

 

Blastmaster

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Just saw this tread. Good information here. In my experence most fights are over in only a few seconds when its a one on one fight or unless the range is greater than a few feet. Ever fight is different and as said above a car chase or a drugged up person may use more shots. Night fightfighting is another matter as well.

 

Fights can be classed in several groups from a one on one to several subects involved. A subject who is drunk or trying to be a bad ass is far different than when you face an experenced fighting man who has killed before and knows how to use a gun. One thing is he has no worry about who is in the line of fire as you do and he will be looking for a chance to turn the odds in his favor just as You will be. If You are down on the Border miles from back up or help and you find yourself in a fight [An it may be night and dark as hell or just as bad moonlight where You can still be seen] the chances are it will be a long gunfight and may cover some distance. A few weeks ago there was a shootout on the Mexican side and over a thousand shell casings were found on the ground and over a dozen killed. This is not something You want to be in.

I was down that way a couple of weeks ago and the two men who were with me were also carrying two 45 Autos and a pocketful of extra magazines as well as cotton cloth and medical tape in their back pocket pockets just in case someone took a hit. We came across some hombres about 25 with backpacks and the leader was armed with an AK 47 and so was the second man behind him as they crossed our fenceline. The last one in line also had an AK. They saw us about the same time we saw them and as always their shots went over our heads as they scartted and hightailed it back towards the river as we lite their ass with with 223 bullets from our Mini-14 Rugers. I guess they would be back later that same night or others, Nothing any different than the last hundred years anyway, same o same o just another day on the Border.

 

Back to the subject here. Nothing is more important than placing your first shot right to stop a fight and standing still in a fight is not the greatest idea and from what I have witnessed everone is getting the hell out of the way anyway after the first shot is fired. One thing I picked up here was not having your gun ready when the trouble goes past talking it out. I carry 100% of the time I am awake and because of where I am at times I never know whats next. I am a great beleaver of having your weapon ready and close at hand when you first know you may need it and that includes having it in your hand with safty off if at all possible without the other dude knowing it. Some time ago I told about an experence in a friends resturant where a dude was acting like he was going to try to rob the place. I ask my friend for a towel and with my 45 in my hand hid under the towel out of his sight but on my table in front of me I looked him in the eyes and was ready when he made his move should he try it. He knew I was onto him and decided to move on. A couuple of days later the same dude killed the man and wife just down the street after they had give him all the money.

 

This is a very serious subject and the more you know what to expect the better your odds will be.

Texas Man

I like what this man has to say!

My take-aways from what he says are several:

1. Always be ready and that means being mentally prepared for anything and keeping a level head and always trying to think one step ahead of your assailant, but still not do anything to push the situation further towards violence (the gun hidden under the towel situation).

2. In the gun hidden under the towel situation, he says "He knew I was on to him and decided to move on". Your ATTITUDE and WHAT YOU PROJECT can "disarm" an assailant and prevent violence. I know this as a fact from personal experience.

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Just how long do they think a handgun fight is going to last?

 

There are endless variations of a gunfight. What I see missing in this thread is the difference between the type of armed encounters a LEO and a citizen face. The citizen is not making car stops, going to disturbance calls, cruising high crime ghettos.

 

IMHO a typical armed CIVILIAN gunfight will only last a few seconds with rounds being fired very rapidly. Rather than trying to do to some fancy dance step my goal is to place my first shot and any follow up shots as accurately and fast as possible.

 

I am certainly open to any examples of how fancy dancing, fast reloading and missing the target won a gunfight.

 

SS,

 

I suppose it depends on what you consider "winning". For me, it means #1 going home alive after the smoke clears; I'm not really concerned with how many rounds I get into the other guys body if it doesn't increase my chances of survival. Moving first makes you harder to hit, shooting back may also make the other guy possibly flinch. I can't control whether he/she flinches when I shoot at or into him. I can make sure he is shooting at a moving target. Don't take my word for it. Get some simunitions or a set of paintball guns and test the theory yourself. It was one of the drills that the Tennessee Law Enforcement Training Academy put Firearm Instructor classes through. I can attest to the fact that Matt Dillon types who stood stock still and tried to place fast well aimed shots lost to guys who moved, from ranges of 25 feet down to point blank. They didn't always lose, just as the guys who moved didn't always get away unscathed. But it happened often enough that it made me a believer.

 

I'm not saying that there is no value in hitting what you intend to hit. I'm saying, it is secondary in my mind to not getting decisively hit yourself. With that said, a gunfight is still a fight and a lot of randomness will get injected. Being a good shooter increases your odds.

 

I can say that for the civilian shootings that I've worked or reviewed, there was a lot of movement going on for both sides and very little decisive hitting. One commonality seems to be that hands and handguns seem to get hit more than randomness would indicate likely. The smart guys that I consider experts on such things have told me that it's because of tunnel vision; you point your gun at what you are concentrating on which is usually the business end of the assailants gun.

 

I don't intend to dismiss your opinion, if you've decided you have a method that works for you, then I say' "Good for you". I got my tactics and training from number of great individuals who don't all agree in all particulars, but I felt there was something they had to say worth listening to and considering.

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SS,

 

I suppose it depends on what you consider "winning". For me, it means #1 going home alive after the smoke clears; I'm not really concerned with how many rounds I get into the other guys body if it doesn't increase my chances of survival.

 

This is the fundamental difference in our opinions. I believe I will win by hitting my attacker in the vital areas as quickly and as many times as needed to stop the attack. The more rounds into the attackers body the greater the odds of hitting the vital areas.

 

Moving first makes you harder to hit, shooting back may also make the other guy possibly flinch. I can't control whether he/she flinches when I shoot at or into him.

 

While you are moving I have drawn my roscoe. I flinch when I think something is going to hit me, not when it is moving away..

 

I can make sure he is shooting at a moving target. Don't take my word for it. Get some simunitions or a set of paintball guns and test the theory yourself. It was one of the drills that the Tennessee Law Enforcement Training Academy put Firearm Instructor classes through. I can attest to the fact that Matt Dillon types who stood stock still and tried to place fast well aimed shots lost to guys who moved, from ranges of 25 feet down to point blank. They didn't always lose, just as the guys who moved didn't always get away unscathed. But it happened often enough that it made me a believer.

 

Sorry I don't believe it.

 

First of all most cops are rotten shots. The only time the vast majority of the practice is once a year for manadatory qualification.

 

Second; I have done paint ball "training". It is simply a game because there is not the stress losing of your life. It is a lot of fun of being the bad guy and coming up with ways to cheat to win though. :)

 

Third; Just how much fancy dancing can you do in a three second exchange of gunfight? Have you applied for "Dancing with the Stars"? As distance opens then movement is more practical. BUT what does moving, taking cover and engaging inprolonged gunfight with reloads have to do with CIVILIAN armed encounters?

 

Finally I disagree with your opinion as to how accurate a gang banger who thinks the way to shoot a gun is to hold it sideways or a felon who never practices is going to shoot in a actual gunfight

 

I'm not saying that there is no value in hitting what you intend to hit. I'm saying, it is secondary in my mind to not getting decisively hit yourself.

 

WOW!!! That is indeed a radical concept. Don't worry about shooting your atttacker. Just fast dance to avoid being hit.

 

I guess gunfighters like Bat Masterson, Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton real life experiences are out-of-date. I have seen a lot of gunshot wounds both when I worked the streets and more recently in hospital emergency rooms. I have also seen a LOT of trauma from accidents. Based on my first hand observations getting shot is not a death sentence. Mental attitude and the will to survive are second to my goal of hitting my attacker accurately. I saw this type of mental attitude on the part of the patient help the medical team save their life on more than one occasion.

 

With that said, a gunfight is still a fight and a lot of randomness will get injected. Being a good shooter increases your odds.

 

I can say that for the civilian shootings that I've worked or reviewed, there was a lot of movement going on for both sides and very little decisive hitting.

 

[iYou have just made my case. The civilian needs to keep his head and "stand and deliver." I am open to any real life examples of when missing a lot won a civilian gunfight.[/i]

 

I don't intend to dismiss your opinion, if you've decided you have a method that works for you, then I say' "Good for you". I got my tactics and training from number of great individuals who don't all agree in all particulars, but I felt there was something they had to say worth listening to and considering.

 

And they have a vested interest in why their method is the best. Remember we are talking about CIVILIAN armed encounters.[/i]

 

Good points and discussion.

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Not really sure how much ammo a person should carry, but you do own every one of those bullets. Spray and pray is decidely not a good answer as even if one is justified in using deadly force, that justification only applies to the specific threat(s). Those addressed to whom it may concern that end up in innocent by-standers, will most likely result in criminal and civil charges.

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Not really sure how much ammo a person should carry, but you do own every one of those bullets. Spray and pray is decidely not a good answer as even if one is justified in using deadly force, that justification only applies to the specific threat(s). Those addressed to whom it may concern that end up in innocent by-standers, will most likely result in criminal and civil charges.

 

Good question captain, but for me I don't carry extra ammo so I'll be able to shoot more.....I carry it in the event my semi auto would have an ammo malfunction requiring me to drop the mag or in the event I drop the mag.....I just don't want to have one less option is all.

 

Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

 

 

KK

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What I am about to say is for civilian folks and not paid/volunteered LEO folks.

 

It is sounding like a lot of folks on this threat do not fully trust their 'A-team' CCW semi-autos in the since they believe one or more of the components of the gun/magazine/ammo will most likely malfunction and need to discard the magazine. Most shooters here are opting to carry a spare magazine to solve all these issues, which sure does help. Magazines(speed loaders too) are not necessary small in the since of concealment on a persons body nor easily accessible once concealed on a normal citizens body. It all depends on how and where you carry the spare magazine, but if it is in deep concealment (probably for most civilians) then I think learning how to clear a bullet feeding malfunction while maintaining control of the just dropped magazine would be faster and easier than go digging in your coat/fanny-pack/front-pocket of your pants for the spare. To each his own.

 

Another viable solution is switch to a much more reliable DA revolver(s). Better yet carry a DA revolver on your body as a backup to your semi-auto and just skip the spare magazine and speed reloader idea, unless you believe you do need all that fire power for when you attend Luby's cafe or Virgina Tech classes. It seems I've heard :rolleyes: the fastest reload is another gun. Ya could bring along a friend or spouse that shoots too. LOL.

 

 

Good reading here. Just another turn on the stirring stick. -_-

 

Blastmaster( just another ordinary common citizen here that hasn't all that street shooting experience)

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What I am about to say is for civilian folks and not paid/volunteered LEO folks.

 

It is sounding like a lot of folks on this threat do not fully trust their 'A-team' CCW semi-autos in the since they believe one or more of the components of the gun/magazine/ammo will most likely malfunction and need to discard the magazine. Most shooters here are opting to carry a spare magazine to solve all these issues, which sure does help. Magazines(speed loaders too) are not necessary small in the since of concealment on a persons body nor easily accessible once concealed on a normal citizens body. It all depends on how and where you carry the spare magazine, but if it is in deep concealment (probably for most civilians) then I think learning how to clear a bullet feeding malfunction while maintaining control of the just dropped magazine would be faster and easier than go digging in your coat/fanny-pack/front-pocket of your pants for the spare. To each his own.

 

Another viable solution is switch to a much more reliable DA revolver(s). Better yet carry a DA revolver on your body as a backup to your semi-auto and just skip the spare magazine and speed reloader idea, unless you believe you do need all that fire power for when you attend Luby's cafe or Virgina Tech classes. It seems I've heard :rolleyes: the fastest reload is another gun. Ya could bring along a friend or spouse that shoots too. LOL.

 

 

Good reading here. Just another turn on the stirring stick. -_-

 

Blastmaster( just another ordinary common citizen here that hasn't all that street shooting experience)

 

 

Very good points. ....and I agree, for someone who does not spend time practicing the very points you make that a revolver might be the answer. While many of us whether a LEO or not are probably fairly well prepared. Let's face it, most of us cowboys play with guns cause we like em and I would guess a large portion of us know how to clear a malfunction and also practice handling stovepipes, mag changes, etc.

 

While I keep my CCW firearm in top operating condition, cleaned, lubed, etc....I also realize that as a civilian I will probably never need it. I put this post up to see if people with semi's carried additional mags. It's a personal choice and one that I've practiced for quite some time.

 

I agree, it's a good read. Many have brought up some great comments and I think it all goes to better educating us all. It's good to hear what other people do. As far as carry of an extra mag, I typically wear BDU pants and they have easy access pockets for an extra mag. As you stated, speed loaders are a bit bulky, but then again if a revolver doesn't go bang....you simply pull the trigger again.

 

Thanks to all who have shared their various viewpoints as well as the other topics that have spawn off....

 

KK

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Very good points. ....and I agree, for someone who does not spend time practicing the very points you make that a revolver might be the answer. While many of us whether a LEO or not are probably fairly well prepared. Let's face it, most of us cowboys play with guns cause we like em and I would guess a large portion of us know how to clear a malfunction and also practice handling stovepipes, mag changes, etc.

 

While I keep my CCW firearm in top operating condition, cleaned, lubed, etc....I also realize that as a civilian I will probably never need it. I put this post up to see if people with semi's carried additional mags. It's a personal choice and one that I've practiced for quite some time.

 

I agree, it's a good read. Many have brought up some great comments and I think it all goes to better educating us all. It's good to hear what other people do. As far as carry of an extra mag, I typically wear BDU pants and they have easy access pockets for an extra mag. As you stated, speed loaders are a bit bulky, but then again if a revolver doesn't go bang....you simply pull the trigger again.

 

Thanks to all who have shared their various viewpoints as well as the other topics that have spawn off....

 

KK

KK -

 

this has been informative - thanks for initiating the dialog. I've learned a few things here, and read a few interesting points of view, which keep me thinking, always a welcome state of being!! Having carried a Colt Detective Special, with a spare load in a speed loader and two speed strips in the glove box, and also Walthers, Kahrs, Hi-Power's and Colt 1911's, I've concluded that they all take up space and have weight. They are all machines, and while some of them are the most amazing precision machines short of a pocket watch, they all have failure modes. It seems to me that revolver failure modes are more rare to induce, but when they occur they really screw up big time. I'm thinking of the round that gets squibed into the forcing cone, locking up the cylinder or plugging the barrel. A high primer locking up the cylinder can also bring the gun to a freeze.

 

For me, my daily garb is chinos or slacks, and large guns are hard to hide, or rather thick guns are difficult. A slim Semi- Automatic can be easily carried with a good belt and holster, and a spare mag or two on the offside is not too bulging either. Revolvers seem to be too lumpy to hide effectively in my life style . . . but I do like the Colt D.S. more than most other round guns for that job.

 

As you said, a lot of us are gun afficianados, as is evidenced by which web site we're reading this on. All my guns are maintained and cleaned, so the liklihood of a jam is reduced, not eliminated. Still, Tap/Rack/Bang drills and clearing/reloading drills are something we need to stay current on.

 

I guess that means more time at the range practicing . . oh darn!

 

Shadow Catcher

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KK -

 

this has been informative - thanks for initiating the dialog. I've learned a few things here, and read a few interesting points of view, which keep me thinking, always a welcome state of being!! Having carried a Colt Detective Special, with a spare load in a speed loader and two speed strips in the glove box,

 

IMHO, a spare magazine or reload in the glove compartment is about as useful as a persons CCW left on the dresser top at home... Useless you are engaging the bad people from within your vehicle or where ever you left the ammo (home?). If you are on foot, then the extra has to be on your body.

 

 

It seems to me that revolver failure modes are more rare to induce, but when they occur they really screw up big time. I'm thinking of the round that gets squibed into the forcing cone, locking up the cylinder or plugging the barrel. A high primer locking up the cylinder can also bring the gun to a freeze.

 

If a semi has a squib and sticks a bullet in the barrel..... you're firearm (both revolver or semi) now have become clubs. Self defense ammo should be thourly checked and rechecked and preferably store bought. Anyway, if you reload and left a high primer,,,, you deserve to be xxxxx for being stupid.

 

 

As you said, a lot of us are gun afficianados, as is evidenced by which web site we're reading this on. All my guns are maintained and cleaned, so the liklihood of a jam is reduced, not eliminated.

 

Cleaning of firearm is important but there are other things the owner should be award of. The semi feeding ramp could have a glitch on it that will not feed a certain style of bullet from magazine. Ya need to know what all styles or brands of ammo your semi likes and will feed 100%.

 

 

Still, Tap/Rack/Bang drills and clearing/reloading drills are something we need to stay current on.

 

From my very brief viewing of Wild Bunch shooters, darn few are proficient with clearing their semi's nor am I impressed with the physical reliablity of the 1911's that I have witnessed. And the shooters have been pretty good wheel gun SASS shooters, so they didn't fall of the turnip truck just yesterday. Perhaps they will improve.

I guess that means more time at the range practicing . . oh darn!

 

Shadow Catcher

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My CCW guns run 110%, or I wouldn't carry them :excl:

I do practice quite a lot and run'em hard with full loads.

For the most part, I carry either a "J" frame .357 S&W or an H&K compac .45acp. Sometimes a Colt 1911 in .45acp goes with me.

I carry a full reload for the same reason folks carry a spare tire in their car ;)

FWIW: Every round you fire may/can become a law suit.......

Respectfully,

LG

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I let the choice of what I carry depend on my dress. Winter time, I can carry my Glock 17, S&W Model 4516 or even my 1911. Summertime or in polite company, I carry a S&W Model 640 in .357 Mag. Don't anybody tell me that they can conceal a big pistol in summer wearing just a t shirt cause I aint buyin that tripe. Part of CCW is "CONCEALED". If you are wearing those big vests or oversized shirts in warm weather, it just screams "GUN".

 

That's why I tease those IPSC guys... They all wear that uniform of the game... and call it concealed and practical... T'aint so...

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Have carried a 1911 under a hawaiian shirt here in the AZ summer LH Dillion IWB (dont carry this one anymore). Stays concealed quite well. Plenty of old fat guys wearing loose hawaiian shirts around here. Backing up into the back side of an elevator one time made a horrendously load clunk that sorta blew my cover so to speak. 2 of my buddies in the elevator also packing busted a gut laughing

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Good points and discussion.

SS,

 

I thought long and hard before posting any reply to your last due to the fact that I took it in a way you may not have intended. The tone struck me as unfriendly, but that could be just the shadow of anonymity which internet posting forces on us.

 

I won't reply to each of your statements, because I'm not defending straw man arguments. I'll just say that I plan to be shooting as quickly as you do if it ever comes to that. I don't understand why you say I plan to mombo instead of shooting back at all? I practice shooting from both fixed positions and on the move, at stationary and at moving targets. Our department invested in a world class shooting facility years ago and we have some of the best trained instructors in the southeast. We have brought in guest instructors from the FBI, Rogers Shooting School, Singleton international (former SAS), Gunsite Instructors, multiple NRA Instructors and I could go on and on. We've run literally hundreds upon hundreds of shooting scenarios with simunitions over the years. I ran training for three years after my last Army mobilization and had some truly great shooting officers working for me. I'm not great myself, just barely good enough, but proud to associate with those men. But, with humility, I've reached some conclusions as a result of my experience and training. My conclusions are different than yours.

 

Now, I'll agree that there are officers who shouldn't even be allowed to carry a gun, but there are plenty who are superior shooters. Once rounds start being exchanged I don't really see a difference between a civilian gunfight and a police involved gunfight except for body armor. Presenting your vest and holding your ground ought to be better for a cop than a civilian...am I right? But it doesn't seem to work out that way according to the FBI. What am I missing?

 

In all the civilian gunfights I worked or reviewed, there was a lot of moving...and guess what, except for a finger blown off, there wasn't a serious injury to parties on either side of the shooting. Granted, these weren't the best shooters on the block. But how many would have been seriously wounded or killed but for the moving they were doing? If both sides had stood their ground and taken well aimed shots, couldn't the result have been serious injury or death on both sides. A tie in that case goes in the loss column, not the win. I take your point that the one who could shoot and did so calmly and quickly in the face of danger would likely win. But, there have been many good men, especially if we go back to the frontier who bravely and romantically engaged and lost. Their names are not remembered quite so well as the ones who survived.

 

Of the two officer involved shootings we've had in the last few years only one could be considered a real gunfight from the officers point of view. The first incident being primarily a struggle for the officers own gun. But in the second, when the suspect presented his gun, officers started moving toward the cover of their cruisers while putting accurate fire into the suspects body. I would say that validates our training program like nothing else.

 

Foremost, I'd say that there is no such thing as cheating in a gunfight. Likewise, typical is a very slippery word when applied to a fight. And 2-3 seconds is a very long time when your life is in danger. As I said before, I respect your point of view, it's very old school and I lived there for many years myself. I have just come to the conclusion that there is a better way for me.

 

Your mileage may vary.

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KK -

 

this has been informative - thanks for initiating the dialog. I've learned a few things here, and read a few interesting points of view, which keep me thinking, always a welcome state of being!! Having carried a Colt Detective Special, with a spare load in a speed loader and two speed strips in the glove box,

 

IMHO, a spare magazine or reload in the glove compartment is about as useful as a persons CCW left on the dresser top at home... Useless you are engaging the bad people from within your vehicle or where ever you left the ammo (home?). If you are on foot, then the extra has to be on your body.

Yeah - I kinda sorta figured that our a few decades back, but my point was that the extra ammo over and above what I carried in mufti was to be there if I wanted it handy for walking into ugly ares, or to make sure I had spares within nearby available reach if I did have to return to my vehicle at some point. Obviously ammo in hand is far better than ammo away from you, but referring back to my initial point - dress enforces limitations some times, and those are the ways I attempted to mitigate some of them. That was a significant factor in choosing to carry a semi-automatic over a revolver, the volumetric efficiency is higher in a semi.

 

It seems to me that revolver failure modes are more rare to induce, but when they occur they really screw up big time. I'm thinking of the round that gets squibed into the forcing cone, locking up the cylinder or plugging the barrel. A high primer locking up the cylinder can also bring the gun to a freeze.

 

If a semi has a squib and sticks a bullet in the barrel..... you're firearm (both revolver or semi) now have become clubs. Self defense ammo should be thourly checked and rechecked and preferably store bought. Anyway, if you reload and left a high primer,,,, you deserve to be xxxxx for being stupid.

If my semi-auto has a squib load leave a bullet in the barrel I can perhaps shoot it again and it might even push the projectile out of the barrel, ignoring the possibility of destruction or ringing or etc.. etc. A revolver with a bullet stuck in the forcing cone is a club . .period . Likewise, the only way I know to thoroughly check my factory bought duty ammo is a one time thing, and it somewhat precludes its future utility. I never carry reloads for Personal Protection, but I have had factory ammo fail. While I recognize that their quality control processes & checking generally results in reliable ammunition - it is a fact that they too make mistakes - nicht wahr?

 

As you said, a lot of us are gun afficianados, as is evidenced by which web site we're reading this on. All my guns are maintained and cleaned, so the liklihood of a jam is reduced, not eliminated.

 

Cleaning of firearm is important but there are other things the owner should be award of. The semi feeding ramp could have a glitch on it that will not feed a certain style of bullet from magazine. Ya need to know what all styles or brands of ammo your semi likes and will feed 100%.

The part where I was talking about a lot of us being afficianados was short-hand for: we should know to test our firearms for functional reliability with our chosen protection ammo. We should know to test our carry mags, and not abuse them with too many drops into the dirt, that's what practice mags are for. We should know to cycle our carry ammo regularly because our gun lubricants can be penetrating and ruin carry ammo in a short time. We should know to utilize our carry leather at the range so that we can reinforce muscle memory in the use there-of, as we will respond somewhat habitually under pressure and stress. Even playing cowboy tends to reinforce these lessons, whether it's our ammunition, our ability to hit what we aim at, our guns reliability, our leathers functionality, or our reloading quality!

 

Still, Tap/Rack/Bang drills and clearing/reloading drills are something we need to stay current on.

 

From my very brief viewing of Wild Bunch shooters, darn few are proficient with clearing their semi's nor am I impressed with the physical reliablity of the 1911's that I have witnessed. And the shooters have been pretty good wheel gun SASS shooters, so they didn't fall of the turnip truck just yesterday. Perhaps they will improve.

 

I'm sorry if your admittedly limited sample size has negatively biased your opinion of their skills; really, I am. I know a lot of us that came to SASS after decades of shooting IPSC and other competitive sports, and a lot of us who also have some LEO or Military experience, as well as a fair bit of professional training. In other words - we didn't all fall off the turnip truck. Combat is hard, whether you're a member of an Army unit facing enemy soldiers in some foreign land, or Joe Six-Pack coming home from work in the south side. Many of us do want to do the right thing in so far as being ready and responsible, but there is NO one right answer, there are too many shades of grey in this world: ammo, gun, techniques, Situational Awareness, tactics yada yada . . . Hell - if it was easy we'd have patented it and sold in in a box!

I guess that means more time at the range practicing . . oh darn!

 

Shadow Catcher

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KK,

 

I agree with ShadowCatcher, I've enjoyed reading the posts here and feel that there has been value added by the often thought provoking difference of opinion.

 

I have a speech I give when instructing new shooters be they police, military or civilian. I call it the "System Speech". I've even given it to people when discussing cars, stereos, etc. and I think it applies in all situations.

 

Most people buy a gun and 50 rounds of ammunition and after expending that amount of rounds there is an end to it. That's just wrong headed. They will get almost no use out of the gun because it will rust quietly in a sock drawer. What a waste!

 

When you buy a gun you are not just buying a gun. If you mean to get the best use out of it you are buying a shooting system. That means you are buying the gun, the holster, the ammunition, magazines that feed it, the jacket that covers it and the training that goes with using it effectively. I could go on to include tools to clean and maintain it and even the lubricant that keeps it working and so on and so on...

 

The point is that you are developing a personal shooting system including the will and the tactics that support what you want to accomplish with the weapon. Like any system it will require some tinkering to get optimum effect. Tune your ammunition, your storage method, your practice regimen, fiddle with everything associated with the system until you find something that, in total, works for you. Listen to your friends and the experts, but at the end of the day, what works for them may be completely wrong for you.

 

If someone says, "I'll never carry spare ammo." What they are really saying is, "In my personal shooting system I've determined that carrying spare ammo is not justified for the use I have intended". That's valid, you have to make choices in life and assume risk where you think best. For me, I'm the type that carries bottled water, first aid kit and tools in my vehicles. I've used them all to some degree at one point or another. But, in every case so far, I could've gotten by fairly well without any of them. I just personally believe that there may come a time when some of that stuff may be crucial.

 

The original question is best answered "yes" or "no", not "you should" or "you shouldn't".

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When I went through my departments academy first with a S&W model 67, we were all advised to drop the empties on the ground. No need to think about reloading when your life is at stake. When we moved on to autos (Glock) we were pretty much instructed the same. Drop the mag as we didn't carry loose ammo to reload a mag. Nor should time be spent doing such a thing. During a jam, it was tap rack and slide first, but then dump the mag and let her drop as we all carried three mags of 15 rounds a pop. It was funny after all the instruction pertaining to this, the number of officers that continually pocketed their model 67 empties well into the academy. Bad habits are hard to break. Smithy.

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Cole Hart,

 

Saludos pard, por favor, no se ofenda a cualquiera de mis comentarios. Mi mala para faltar al respeto.

 

As I pointed out earlier some of the pards don't understand the difference between the roles of a LEO and a civilian. I just dissected your points so I could better explain my thoughts. I think the biggest difference is you view a gunfight in the role of a LEO which involves both the defensive and offensive use of a handgun and the obiligation of a LEO to intervene if a crime is being committed.

 

As a retired LEO and a CIVILIAN I DON'T give two hoots about any of that. My use of a handgun is mainly defensive (If you consider checking for things that go bump in the night offensive). I am under no obiligation and, in fact, may be putting myself in criminal and civil trouble if I intevene in a dispute. Unless a loved one or a close friend is in danger I will not intevene. I MIGHT call 911 or MORE likely is I am going to get out of Dodge.

 

Another way of looking at this is my Mother, Mother-in-Law and Sister are nurses. All of them have said if they saw someone injured in car accident needing medical attention they would not stop to render first aid. Even though they have insurance they all believe the odds of personal lawsuit from the victim was too grear of a risk.

 

On the other hand my daughter is a EMT so she has one of those big first responder bags she carries in her car. The difference between her and the other ladies is her occupation as a first responder.

 

If I am confronted in armed encounted my first plan is to retreat so we can agree on movement to that point. It is well documented that when a gunfight small motor skills are forgotten along with basic skills like looking at the front sight. Given this stress I do not want to futher clutter my mind by trying to remember if cover is to my right or behind me, etc.

 

What I have decided that for me personally the best strategy is to "take my time quick", focus on the basic gun skills and deliver my shots as accurately as I can.

 

Since you are a frearms instructor I have no doubt that you want your officers to have the best training your department will let you provide. As I have also said many of the instructors in these top shooting schools have a hugh investment in them and have to promote their system as their bread and butter.

 

Again, I don't mean to come across as unfriendly. You presented very good points from the viewpoint of a LEO. Saddle up and have a safe shift pard.

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I always liked the NY reload....if I'm not expecting trouble.

 

If I am expecting trouble, then my primary moves to shotgun.

 

+1 for the New York reload :)

 

Also agree with the shotgun (or rifle, if prudent) for planned events ;)

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As he walked to his truck

He trusted no luck.

"Be Prepared" as those young boy scouts say

 

You never know what

might be after your butt

So he's loaded for bear every day

 

In each pocket, two mags

And a big ammo bag

In the back by his trusty AK

 

A Number 1 Randall

With his name on the handle

And a J frame for work and for play

 

Two fine ankle holsters

Were helpful to bolster

his courage in case things got bad

 

A small Colt in each one

(they were just backup guns)

Extra speedloaders made him quite glad

 

In a black fanny back

Worn up front, not round back

A Ruger of which he was proud

 

A 1911

which to him was just heaven

Was concealed in his waist from the crowd

 

A Leatherman tool

Because he was no fool

In case some repairs were required

 

And a Deringer too

Was part of his crew

It was one of the few he'd not fired

 

A sharpened watch fob

was there on the job

And some nunchuks stuffed in his boot

 

Under the seat

a Tec 9 would bring heat

If he got in a gang banger shoot

 

Nope, this guy was no schmuck

As he strode to his truck

But he slipped on the ice on the walk

 

He crashed to the ground

with a terrible sound

And emitted a chicken-like squawk

 

Later that day

his wife found him that way

Weighed down by his weapons and stuff

 

As he groaned to his feet

His wife said very sweet

"Maybe one extra mag is enough" ;)

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Guest Texas Jack Black

To the contrary, I live in one of the safest areas in the US.

 

Howsomever I subscribe to the old boy scout motto of "be prepared". It's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

In a split second even the safest of areas can become a life or death "scene". I just don't wanna get killed for lack of shooting back. I prefer my adversary's bullet riddled body be laying there than mine. [/quote No offense, but if you live in the Pampa Tx.area you are in an area with a crime rate above the national average .

 

just saying

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Most semi auto malfunctions can be traced directly to bad magazines (95% of the time) or poor grip (5%).

 

I shoot my pistols a lot and the first hint of a magazine issue and it goes into the trash. I won't even save it as a practice magazine because there's that slight chance of getting it mixed up with the good ones. Modern designed semi autos and their magazines are a wonder of efficiency and seldom go bad unless you happen to drop them on their feed lips.

 

So, for me, 17 plus 1 in my Glock 17 gives me greater confidence than 7 plus 1 in my 1911 with a spare magazine. Sorry guys, but I am leading in here with the fact that modern Plus P 124 grain 9MM's have essentially the same stopping power as a 230 grain JHP .45 ACP. Plus, in a 1911, it's not a matter of will the pistol hiccup with a good JHP, but when... It wasn't designed by John Browning to feed them. Fed 230 grain ball, it is wonderfully reliable. It is not a modern design and cannot compare with the newer pistols as far as feed efficiency. Don't believe me? Watch a match with people shooting 1911's. You will see stopages..... Lots of them.

 

Before I am labeled as a Blasphemer, let me state right here and now that I love my 1911 and will never be without one.

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Most semi auto malfunctions can be traced directly to bad magazines (95% of the time) or poor grip (5%).

 

I shoot my pistols a lot and the first hint of a magazine issue and it goes into the trash. I won't even save it as a practice magazine because there's that slight chance of getting it mixed up with the good ones. Modern designed semi autos and their magazines are a wonder of efficiency and seldom go bad unless you happen to drop them on their feed lips.

 

So, for me, 17 plus 1 in my Glock 17 gives me greater confidence than 7 plus 1 in my 1911 with a spare magazine. Sorry guys, but I am leading in here with the fact that modern Plus P 124 grain 9MM's have essentially the same stopping power as a 230 grain JHP .45 ACP. Plus, in a 1911, it's not a matter of will the pistol hiccup with a good JHP, but when... It wasn't designed by John Browning to feed them. Fed 230 grain ball, it is wonderfully reliable. It is not a modern design and cannot compare with the newer pistols as far as feed efficiency. Don't believe me? Watch a match with people shooting 1911's. You will see stopages..... Lots of them.

 

Before I am labeled as a Blasphemer, let me state right here and now that I love my 1911 and will never be without one.

I agree with you about the caliber wars - the modern 9mm and the .40 S&W are ferocious compared to their historical performance, and I too would trust them any time. I like my Hi Power and my K9 both, trading back and forth between higher capacity and easier concealment as needed.

 

The feed issue with hollow points is pretty much over come by any competent gunsmith, if it hasn't been dealt with by the manufacturer some where along the line in the last 35 years. Several manufacturers have gone over to fully integrated barrel & feed ramp designs; I think that is really unnecessary for the 1911 in .45 ACP.

 

Any gun needs to be function tested with any ammo that is planned to be used; I've had hardball loaded too long or short for the mag or the feed ramp to handle well, and I've had that happen in 9mm as well as .45 ACP.

 

I do have to stipulate that for many of us the 1911 pattern is a gun we grew up with, have used for upwards of 35 years, and feel extremely comfortable with in spite of it's somewhat antiquated materials and original design. I never could get to like the Glock, but I understand it to be a phenomenal gun, my two (Mdl 17 & 19) never became a go-to gun for me . . . . The Hi-Power did from day one! A natural pointer, and comfortable to shoot, and as well fitted to my hands and muscle memory as a 1911.

 

I think the fundamental issue for a lot of folks is what tool do they take comfort in - do they trust it to help save their lives. If the guns design and reliability give you comfort, if you trust it and understand it, you will like it and you will do better with it. Likewise for ammunition. If you are confident in your tools and tactics, you will prevail, if you start out in doubt, you will falter and fail.

 

Whether we are jello junkies or morgue monsters, 9mm versus .45 proponents, round gun versus bottom feeder protagonists, we are all doing the same thing, we are evaluating and assessing our choices of tools and techniques.

 

I think most of these discussions are really about reinforcing our confidence in our chosen tools.

 

Shadow catcher

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Most semi auto malfunctions can be traced directly to bad magazines (95% of the time) or poor grip (5%).

 

I shoot my pistols a lot and the first hint of a magazine issue and it goes into the trash. I won't even save it as a practice magazine because there's that slight chance of getting it mixed up with the good ones. Modern designed semi autos and their magazines are a wonder of efficiency and seldom go bad unless you happen to drop them on their feed lips.

 

So, for me, 17 plus 1 in my Glock 17 gives me greater confidence than 7 plus 1 in my 1911 with a spare magazine. Sorry guys, but I am leading in here with the fact that modern Plus P 124 grain 9MM's have essentially the same stopping power as a 230 grain JHP .45 ACP. Plus, in a 1911, it's not a matter of will the pistol hiccup with a good JHP, but when... It wasn't designed by John Browning to feed them. Fed 230 grain ball, it is wonderfully reliable. It is not a modern design and cannot compare with the newer pistols as far as feed efficiency. Don't believe me? Watch a match with people shooting 1911's. You will see stopages..... Lots of them.

 

Before I am labeled as a Blasphemer, let me state right here and now that I love my 1911 and will never be without one.

 

 

DANG IT Sarge! With ONLY 2 weeks left before Christmas you go shooting your mouth off like that. You had better hope Santa likes the 9mm also. :lol::lol::lol:

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