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Korupt Karl

Conceal Carry Question

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Where was most if not all the small arms and AA ammo at Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941. In locked boxes. There are times I wonder?!

 

 

Not just locked boxes. The entire armories were locked and had to be broken into by men with steel gonads...

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A lot of the time I have 3 guns on me and to mags for the main one. I never go out without one reload minimum. I have carried a NAA .22 mag for years and would not want to depend on it saving me. I carry it for contact use. I want to take the low life mama's favorite child with me if I have to go. I have seen the lead from one stopped by card board (printer paper) box (empty) at 20 feet several times, what holes in the box are key holed. Most of the time if you are using it to defend with it is 50/50 that it will stop a bad guy before you have to press it under his chin. The lead may not stop him but the blast channel will.

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FBI statistics indicate that police officers involved in a gunfight whose first instinct was to get their feet moving survived at an average rate of about 70%. Returning fire was secondary, though still important. In film terms think "Open Range" as opposed to the opening credits of "Gunsmoke".

 

Turn that statistic around and it says...70% of officers who stood stock still as on a range and returned fire, died at a rate of 70%. They probably did a good deal of hitting what they aimed at. That's good if you want to be buried with the highest score.

 

What are you going to do when the shooting starts? I can tell you one thing. I'm not going to be collecting half empty magazines as I scurry for cover. I plan to move-shoot while moving-empty the gun-reload behind cover-take better aimed shots-go home...in that order.

 

So yes, carry extra ammo.

 

Cole Hart

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A lot of good advice posted here.

 

Yes, a spare magazine or reload is good advice and a good thing to take along with you. Dropping the parcial magazine or taking it with you after the reload has pros-cons. It gives you more options. With that, the best reload is another fully charged firearm, just like your main CCW. :blush: Now how many people do that? Everything is a compromise (hassle factor, weight, bulk, concealability, etc) and each has to figure that out.

 

If everyone that has posted on this threat 'actually' carrys on a regular bases, then good on ya.

 

I believe the best defense is to be aware of your situation and surroundings, take evasive actions when the situation turns bad, then go for the firearm.

 

Blastmaster

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No. IMO for the average person NOT a police officer or military if you have to use a gun it will be very close range and happen very fast and after a couple rounds someone will be down or flee....or both. By the time it takes to reload things will more than likely be over.

 

 

You can never be too safe.....no doubt but I don't plan to start a war just protect myself from a bad situation.

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FBI statistics indicate that police officers involved in a gunfight whose first instinct was to get their feet moving survived at an average rate of about 70%. Returning fire was secondary, though still important. In film terms think "Open Range" as opposed to the opening credits of "Gunsmoke".

 

Turn that statistic around and it says...70% of officers who stood stock still as on a range and returned fire, died at a rate of 70%. They probably did a good deal of hitting what they aimed at. That's good if you want to be buried with the highest score.

 

What are you going to do when the shooting starts? I can tell you one thing. I'm not going to be collecting half empty magazines as I scurry for cover. I plan to move-shoot while moving-empty the gun-reload behind cover-take better aimed shots-go home...in that order.

 

So yes, carry extra ammo.

 

Cole Hart

While I agree with your conclusion, there is no LOGICAL way to derive the contrapositive statement you made.

 

The observation that those who moved survived at an average 70% rate, says nothing about those who didn't. They

might have survived at 99%, or at 3% - it is not addressed. If it said those who moved survived at a 70% greater rate,

it might follow, but as stated it has no relationship.

 

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion - I agree whole heartedly, it makes sense. I just can't make the leap

from [A implies B], therefor [(not A) implies 100% - B].

 

Sorry for splitting logical hairs!

 

Shadow Catcher

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Guest Dusty Feller, SASS #20010L

Good Morning Karl,

 

My first response to your question is a question.

 

"What would your reason be for not carrying an extra magazine?"

 

"Weight" Are you kidding me?

"Size" Are you kidding me?

"Bump in clothes" Are you kidding me?

Do we sense a pattern here? :rolleyes:

 

 

It seems to me that having an extra magazine is kind of like auto insurance that you only need when you need it.

 

Or, put another way, it is better to have an extra magazine and not need it than to not have one and need it.

 

Put yet another way, "The only time you will need a gun (extra magazine), you will REALLY need it!"

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No. IMO for the average person NOT a police officer or military if you have to use a gun it will be very close range and happen very fast and after a couple rounds someone will be down or flee....or both. By the time it takes to reload things will more than likely be over.

 

 

You can never be too safe.....no doubt but I don't plan to start a war just protect myself from a bad situation.

 

That's what folks say till AFTER their first gunfight.

EVERY gun fight vet. I know carries at least one reload if not two.

FWIW: I can load any of my CCW guns PDQ because I train to do so.

You see, I train so I can't get it wrong.....

Respectfully,

LG

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I always liked the NY reload....if I'm not expecting trouble.

 

If I am expecting trouble, then my primary moves to shotgun.

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According to AAFCI, There has NEVER been a documented case of where a carry permit holder has EVER required a reload to neutralize a situation. Furthermore, over 90% of all situations require 2 or less shots.

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No. IMO for the average person NOT a police officer or military if you have to use a gun it will be very close range and happen very fast and after a couple rounds someone will be down or flee....or both. By the time it takes to reload things will more than likely be over.

 

 

You can never be too safe.....no doubt but I don't plan to start a war just protect myself from a bad situation.

 

That is not just the average person. Most police gunfights also happen at very close range. This is why police train as close as 1 1/2 yards to target.

But.. with the plethora of hicap guns used by crooks these days they tend to spray and pray and empty a whole mag. The number of shots fired per fight has gone up dramatically over the past few years.

 

You're right about things most likely being over....

Of course you most likely won't even get into a gunfight so why bother to carry?

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

As a confirmed coward, I'll continue to carry and have extra ammo at my disposal just in case "most likely" turns into "Uh oh. Now what?!" ;)

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I always liked the NY reload....if I'm not expecting trouble.

 

If I am expecting trouble, then my primary moves to shotgun.

 

Or rather than worry about a reload I simply carry a high capcity 9mm.

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While I agree with your conclusion, there is no LOGICAL way to derive the contrapositive statement you made.

 

The observation that those who moved survived at an average 70% rate, says nothing about those who didn't. They

might have survived at 99%, or at 3% - it is not addressed. If it said those who moved survived at a 70% greater rate,

it might follow, but as stated it has no relationship.

 

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion - I agree whole heartedly, it makes sense. I just can't make the leap

from [A implies B], therefor [(not A) implies 100% - B].

 

Sorry for splitting logical hairs!

 

Shadow Catcher

 

Shadowcatcher,

 

You've got me there. I can say that math or logic was never my strong point. I've probably mangled the quote, which came from a pair of FBI Firearms Instructors. The gist was mainly, though maybe not precisely what I was saying, which was...move first while shooting and you'll likely live through a gunfight...stand still and you'll likely die.

 

There is a good video of a Texas Department of Public Safety Officer who is faced by three felons at about arms length when the shooting started. The officer spun, ran, drew and started shooting in a weird buttonhook maneuver and came out on top of the situation. Because of range rules, most people train to stand stock still when the shooting starts.

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That is not just the average person. Most police gunfights also happen at very close range. This is why police train as close as 1 1/2 yards to target.

But.. with the plethora of hicap guns used by crooks these days they tend to spray and pray and empty a whole mag. The number of shots fired per fight has gone up dramatically over the past few years.

 

You're right about things most likely being over....

Of course you most likely won't even get into a gunfight so why bother to carry?

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

As a confirmed coward, I'll continue to carry and have extra ammo at my disposal just in case "most likely" turns into "Uh oh. Now what?!" ;)

 

 

My closest shooting was 21 feet and the furthest was 58 yards... (engaged a guy shooting up the neighborhood with an M1 Carbine)

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Shadowcatcher,

 

You've got me there. I can say that math or logic was never my strong point. I've probably mangled the quote, which came from a pair of FBI Firearms Instructors. The gist was mainly, though maybe not precisely what I was saying, which was...move first while shooting and you'll likely live through a gunfight...stand still and you'll likely die.

 

 

Just how long do they think a handgun fight is going to last?

 

There are endless variations of a gunfight. What I see missing in this thread is the difference between the type of armed encounters a LEO and a citizen face. The citizen is not making car stops, going to disturbance calls, cruising high crime ghettos.

 

IMHO a typical armed CIVILIAN gunfight will only last a few seconds with rounds being fired very rapidly. Rather than trying to do to some fancy dance step my goal is to place my first shot and any follow up shots as accurately and fast as possible.

 

I am certainly open to any examples of how fancy dancing, fast reloading and missing the target won a gunfight.

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Shadowcatcher,

 

You've got me there. I can say that math or logic was never my strong point. I've probably mangled the quote, which came from a pair of FBI Firearms Instructors. The gist was mainly, though maybe not precisely what I was saying, which was...move first while shooting and you'll likely live through a gunfight...stand still and you'll likely die.

 

There is a good video of a Texas Department of Public Safety Officer who is faced by three felons at about arms length when the shooting started. The officer spun, ran, drew and started shooting in a weird buttonhook maneuver and came out on top of the situation. Because of range rules, most people train to stand stock still when the shooting starts.

No sweat - wasn't trying to be a wise ass or keep score. Your point is important - I think Clint Smith said it

this way: "If your shooting stance is great - your tactics suck".

 

Move to cover, shoot to escape, or at least something of that general idea. IPSC is negative training, but IDPA seems to

be more appropriate to this mind set. I'm thinking of giving it a go, having given up on IPSC when I got into SASS

some 15 years ago.

 

I know this topic is a lot of theoretical discussion, but I will note that a few LEO's with actual gunfighting experience

and others with significant training have chimed in - and it seems most agree - more ammo is not a bad thing.

 

How long do gun fights for non-LEO's last? I guess till the shooting stops. From the store robbery video's we see, and

from the various newspaper and magazine articles we get, it seems like they go for some number of shots, varying by how

much ammo one has, how many bad guys there are, where it all takes place, and who wins.

 

I guess we could assume that we will probably never get into a gun fight, and any gun fight we get into will be average

duration/round count or less, but of course if that is a wrong assumption things are really going to suck.

 

I'd really hate to be in a gun fight, but if I was I'd really really hate to almost win, but run out of ammo two shots too soon . . .

 

That could ruin your whole outlook on this stuff . . . .

 

Never the less, I hope this stays a theoretical discussion for all of us.

 

Shadow Catcher

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How long do gun fights for non-LEO's last? I guess till the shooting stops. From the store robbery video's we see, and

from the various newspaper and magazine articles we get, it seems like they go for some number of shots, varying by how

much ammo one has, how many bad guys there are, where it all takes place, and who wins.

Shadow Catcher

There is a fairly well-documented tendency, among LEO's as well as citizens, to shoot until empty. The more training a shooter has, the less this is likely to be true, nevertheless we've all seen the videos of police dumping their magazines, often with minimal hits.

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There is a fairly well-documented tendency, among LEO's as well as citizens, to shoot until empty. The more training a shooter has, the less this is likely to be true, nevertheless we've all seen the videos of police dumping their magazines, often with minimal hits.

I do think that there are several very valid reasons that this happens:

 

1. Adrenalin causes you to go very focused on the threat and in stopping it,

much more than in doing a round count while shooting . . .

 

2. We can fire a pistol very fast; I've shot a Browning Hi Power dry (14 rounds) in 2.7 seconds,

all A Zone at 3 yards, and I wasn't running on adrenalin at the time. . .

 

3. The target moves too - so where we think we're pointing and where we think we're hitting, and the

target's cooperation all mix to cause difficulties - unlike paper targets the bullet holes are not

always obvious, we don't see the hits, and the damn beast won't go down!!

 

4. Once we go into a reaction mode - shooting; we have trouble mentally interrupting this, and doing

a threat assessment. It's hard to stop until lock-back or 'click' interrupts our response mechanism . . .

 

I'm more and more convinced I want a phaser, set on heavy stun, with an option for a wide area setting . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

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I do think that there are several very valid reasons that this happens:

 

1. Adrenalin causes you to go very focused on the threat and in stopping it,

much more than in doing a round count while shooting . . .

 

2. We can fire a pistol very fast; I've shot a Browning Hi Power dry (14 rounds) in 2.7 seconds,

all A Zone at 3 yards, and I wasn't running on adrenalin at the time. . .

 

3. The target moves too - so where we think we're pointing and where we think we're hitting, and the

target's cooperation all mix to cause difficulties - unlike paper targets the bullet holes are not

always obvious, we don't see the hits, and the damn beast won't go down!!

 

4. Once we go into a reaction mode - shooting; we have trouble mentally interrupting this, and doing

a threat assessment. It's hard to stop until lock-back or 'click' interrupts our response mechanism . . .

 

I'm more and more convinced I want a phaser, set on heavy stun, with an option for a wide area setting . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

There is also the fact that getting shot at tends to unnerve most people.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

My closest shooting was 21 feet and the furthest was 58 yards... (engaged a guy shooting up the neighborhood with an M1 Carbine)

 

 

Hey Smokey Pole....

 

EDIT: A lil- bit too much info, there... but I can attest for missin' completely at very close ranges...

 

IMHO... if a man can control his adrenaline... and be deliberate... he's got an edge. Anticipating-practice sessions with a handgun... would go a long way in creatin' an instinctive reaction... in unanticipated emergency instances.

 

ts

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I carry 24 mags that hold 15 rounds each so I can get to the 20 cases of ammo I carry in the truck

 

Just for additional safety I'm planning of hiring 2 boys to carry a few backup firearms and more ammo for me

 

This is just until the Feds approve my permit for redundant ICM, nuclear tip

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I carry 24 mags that hold 15 rounds each so I can get to the 20 cases of ammo I carry in the truck

 

Just for additional safety I'm planning of hiring 2 boys to carry a few backup firearms and more ammo for me

 

This is just until the Feds approve my permit for redundant ICM, nuclear tip

 

 

This makes me think of a belt feed (verrry long belt mind you) semi auto pistol would be a serious consideration for someones CCW. Leave the extra magazine home with this set up. :lol:

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I carry 24 mags that hold 15 rounds each so I can get to the 20 cases of ammo I carry in the truck

 

Just for additional safety I'm planning of hiring 2 boys to carry a few backup firearms and more ammo for me

 

This is just until the Feds approve my permit for redundant ICM, nuclear tip

You can be my wingman anytime.

 

SC

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Think of a extra mag like a spare tire, you most likely will never need it but when you do you will need it bad. It doesn't hurt to carry two if they are single stacks or you can easily.

 

I noticed several of you expounding on the wisdom of a "tactical" reload, I would like to give you some food for thought: A little over two years ago I helped a small Police department go from dream to reality, while the main scope of my job was to write their Operations and General orders manual I did get to participate in some of the officer training where the Tactical reload was discussed and practiced; what was found out is that even after training it takes 3X times longer or more for the average officer to make the Tactical reload than a normal "magazine drop" reload we also saw that in most cases -even among those experienced in "tactical reloads" they took their eyes off the threat zone to see what they were doing with the magazines, this was amplified when the reload involved a double stack mag. After much debate and having officers take the time to practice tactical reloads (1000 practice reloads) the decision was made to issue 5 magazines and two mag pouches instead of 3 and one mag pouch, as the Chief said "It is worth an extra $75.00 a officer to buy the gear rather than getting called and told they were shot while trying to reload and not drop a magazine while under pressure.

 

I have yet to hear of a "tactical reload" being the life saver for an officer. Keeping all your bullets is a nice theory, but sometimes theories do not work to well in the real world. :D

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The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis

OVERVIEW OF SURVEY

For the period 1997 - 2001, reports from "The Armed Citizen" column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

 

DATA ANALYSIS

As might be expected, the majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles.

 

The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).

 

Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty. It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters. At least one assailant was killed in 34% of all incidents. At least one assailant was wounded in an additional 29% of all incidents. Of the incidents where shots are fired by a defender, at least one assailant is killed in 53% of those incidents.

 

Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.

 

The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.

The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.

 

Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.

 

Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there were no apparent cases of getaway drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. At the sound of gunfire, immediate flight was the most common response for drivers and lookouts.

 

When multiple conspirators were involved, the first tier was a two man action team. If another member was available, he was usually the driver of the getaway car and remained in the car. If a fourth conspirator was involved, he was stationed immediately outside the target location as a lookout for the police or other possible intervening parties. The outside conspirators do not generally appear to be armed. It does appear that the trend over the period has increased from one weapon in the action team to two weapons.

 

The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, a group that committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner, who saw them invade an adjacent home, accessed his shotgun, and dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) when they broke in his door.

Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.

The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even small caliber handguns displayed a significant degree of instant lethality (30 per cent immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.

 

CONCLUSIONS

1) Even small caliber weapons are adequate to solve the vast majority of incidents requiring armed self-defense.

2) Mindset of the potential victim was far more important than the type of weapon used. All the victims were willing to fight their opponents in order to survive. Although not common, in some cases bridge weapons, such as pens, were used to gain time to access the firearm.

3) Frequently, the defenders were aware that something was amiss before the action started and then placed themselves in position to access their weapons. Awareness of the surroundings appears to be a key element of successful defense.

4) The defenders had some measure of familiarity with their firearms. Although perhaps not trained in the formal sense, they appear to be able to access a firearm and immediately put it into action. At least one defender learned from a previous experience and made the firearm more accessible for subsequent use.

5) Training or practice with a firearm should include a substantial amount of accessing the firearm from off body locations, such as drawers, underneath counters, etc.

6) This analysis does not present a view of the totality of armed self-defense in that non-positive outcomes were not available for inclusion in the database. The analysis may, however, be useful in helping to describe a methodology for successful armed self-defense. This methodology might be described as: 1. be aware, 2. be willing to fight, 3. have a weapon accessible, 4. be familiar enough with the weapon to employ it without fumbling, 5. when ready, communicate, both verbally and non-verbally, to the attacker that resistance will be given, and 6. if the attacker does not withdraw, counterattack without hesitation.

 

Data Tables

Location of Incident

Home 52%

Business 32%

Public 9%

In or around Vehicle 7%

 

Shots Fired

Type of Location No Yes

Business 33% 72%

Home 25% 75%

Public 29% 71%

In or around Vehicle 35% 65%

Grand Total 28% 72%

 

Number of Shots Fired

Average 2.2

Median 2

Mode 1

Max 20

 

Gun Type

Handgun 78%

Long Gun 13%

Unknown 8%

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Think of a extra mag like a spare tire, you most likely will never need it but when you do you will need it bad. It doesn't hurt to carry two if they are single stacks or you can easily.

 

I noticed several of you expounding on the wisdom of a "tactical" reload, I would like to give you some food for thought: A little over two years ago I helped a small Police department go from dream to reality, while the main scope of my job was to write their Operations and General orders manual I did get to participate in some of the officer training where the Tactical reload was discussed and practiced; what was found out is that even after training it takes 3X times longer or more for the average officer to make the Tactical reload than a normal "magazine drop" reload we also saw that in most cases -even among those experienced in "tactical reloads" they took their eyes off the threat zone to see what they were doing with the magazines, this was amplified when the reload involved a double stack mag. After much debate and having officers take the time to practice tactical reloads (1000 practice reloads) the decision was made to issue 5 magazines and two mag pouches instead of 3 and one mag pouch, as the Chief said "It is worth an extra $75.00 a officer to buy the gear rather than getting called and told they were shot while trying to reload and not drop a magazine while under pressure.

 

I have yet to hear of a "tactical reload" being the life saver for an officer. Keeping all your bullets is a nice theory, but sometimes theories do not work to well in the real world. :D

I would think a little common sense goes a long way: tactical reloads are performed when there is time to do so. I also think it is far more likely to be used by a LEO than a citizen: if I get into a gunfight with someone who then flees into a building, I generally would not be inclined to go in after him. A LEO may be obligated to do so.

 

Matthew Duncan,

That is interesting and informative reading. Where did you find it?

 

This "When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty" does not surprise me at all, but "It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters" definitely did.

 

This "Even small caliber handguns displayed a significant degree of instant lethality (30 per cent immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range" also contradicts much of what I have read for decades about handguns in general and so-called "stopping power".

 

As far as conclusions 2, 3 and 4, my response is "well DUH".

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The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis

OVERVIEW OF SURVEY

For the period 1997 - 2001, reports from "The Armed Citizen" column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

<SNIP>

 

D

 

Gun Type

Handgun 78%

Long Gun 13%

Unknown 8%

 

 

Thank you sir, this is a good synopsis of the articles reported in the NRA magazine, which lead us to deduce a few things . . . .

 

Oh, wait - deductive reasoning . . . a method of going wrong logically and with high confidence in the reasoning . . . <_<

 

Still - a good read none the less . . . .

 

SC

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Nope....I just carry 2 GUNS! XD and a J frame snub ;)

And I can shoot gunfighter or double duelist!

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Tactical reloads are a smart thing if there is time and safe cover to perform them.Having been in a number of duty related shootings, I can tell you explicitly that "Counting Your Shots" is a falacy. Nobody can really do it if it comes down to multiple shots fired by you and towards you. You will pull that trigger until it starts to go "CLICK!" and then you will hear the loudest sound in the world. Those that tell you different are writers, teaching someplace and probably have never heard or fired a shot in anger. They are selling a technique to the public. In my first shoot, I swore up and down that I only fired one shot and there were 3 burn marks on the front of my revolver cylinder.

 

While in Southeast Asia, we had a habit of loading round number 27 of out 30 rounders as a tracer to let us know that we are running dry and to get some cover. When the SHTF, you can guarantee that ALL of your motor skills are going to go away and you will have 8 thumbs and 2 useless digits... You WILL take your eyes off the threat because your hands aren't doing what they did in practice.... They are now shaking..... You will reload after the shots stop and then you advance towards your attacker to verify that the threat is over. That, IMHO, is not a tactical reload.

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The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis

OVERVIEW OF SURVEY

For the period 1997 - 2001, reports from "The Armed Citizen" column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.

 

DATA ANALYSIS

As might be expected, the majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles.

 

The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).

 

Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty. It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters. At least one assailant was killed in 34% of all incidents. At least one assailant was wounded in an additional 29% of all incidents. Of the incidents where shots are fired by a defender, at least one assailant is killed in 53% of those incidents.

 

Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.

 

The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.

The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.

 

Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.

 

Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there were no apparent cases of getaway drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. At the sound of gunfire, immediate flight was the most common response for drivers and lookouts.

 

When multiple conspirators were involved, the first tier was a two man action team. If another member was available, he was usually the driver of the getaway car and remained in the car. If a fourth conspirator was involved, he was stationed immediately outside the target location as a lookout for the police or other possible intervening parties. The outside conspirators do not generally appear to be armed. It does appear that the trend over the period has increased from one weapon in the action team to two weapons.

 

The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, a group that committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner, who saw them invade an adjacent home, accessed his shotgun, and dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) when they broke in his door.

Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.

The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even small caliber handguns displayed a significant degree of instant lethality (30 per cent immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.

 

CONCLUSIONS

1) Even small caliber weapons are adequate to solve the vast majority of incidents requiring armed self-defense.

2) Mindset of the potential victim was far more important than the type of weapon used. All the victims were willing to fight their opponents in order to survive. Although not common, in some cases bridge weapons, such as pens, were used to gain time to access the firearm.

3) Frequently, the defenders were aware that something was amiss before the action started and then placed themselves in position to access their weapons. Awareness of the surroundings appears to be a key element of successful defense.

4) The defenders had some measure of familiarity with their firearms. Although perhaps not trained in the formal sense, they appear to be able to access a firearm and immediately put it into action. At least one defender learned from a previous experience and made the firearm more accessible for subsequent use.

5) Training or practice with a firearm should include a substantial amount of accessing the firearm from off body locations, such as drawers, underneath counters, etc.

6) This analysis does not present a view of the totality of armed self-defense in that non-positive outcomes were not available for inclusion in the database. The analysis may, however, be useful in helping to describe a methodology for successful armed self-defense. This methodology might be described as: 1. be aware, 2. be willing to fight, 3. have a weapon accessible, 4. be familiar enough with the weapon to employ it without fumbling, 5. when ready, communicate, both verbally and non-verbally, to the attacker that resistance will be given, and 6. if the attacker does not withdraw, counterattack without hesitation.

 

Data Tables

Location of Incident

Home 52%

Business 32%

Public 9%

In or around Vehicle 7%

 

Shots Fired

Type of Location No Yes

Business 33% 72%

Home 25% 75%

Public 29% 71%

In or around Vehicle 35% 65%

Grand Total 28% 72%

 

Number of Shots Fired

Average 2.2

Median 2

Mode 1

Max 20

 

Gun Type

Handgun 78%

Long Gun 13%

Unknown 8%

 

thanks for the info.....

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Data Tables

Location of Incident

Home 52%

Business 32%

Public 9%

In or around Vehicle 7%

 

Shots Fired

Type of Location No Yes

Business 33% 72%

Home 25% 75%

Public 29% 71%

In or around Vehicle 35% 65%

Grand Total 28% 72%

 

Number of Shots Fired

Average 2.2

Median 2

Mode 1

Max 20

 

Gun Type

Handgun 78%

Long Gun 13%

Unknown 8%

 

That is a reasonably large sampling. The median of 2 shots fired per incident was compelling. Absent anything closer to valid data, which frankly I have never seen in any forum on any SD/HD topic, that was great info. Very valuable input to forming one's opinion on the best fit HD gun.

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Just saw this tread. Good information here. In my experence most fights are over in only a few seconds when its a one on one fight or unless the range is greater than a few feet. Ever fight is different and as said above a car chase or a drugged up person may use more shots. Night fightfighting is another matter as well.

 

Fights can be classed in several groups from a one on one to several subects involved. A subject who is drunk or trying to be a bad ass is far different than when you face an experenced fighting man who has killed before and knows how to use a gun. One thing is he has no worry about who is in the line of fire as you do and he will be looking for a chance to turn the odds in his favor just as You will be. If You are down on the Border miles from back up or help and you find yourself in a fight [An it may be night and dark as hell or just as bad moonlight where You can still be seen] the chances are it will be a long gunfight and may cover some distance. A few weeks ago there was a shootout on the Mexican side and over a thousand shell casings were found on the ground and over a dozen killed. This is not something You want to be in.

I was down that way a couple of weeks ago and the two men who were with me were also carrying two 45 Autos and a pocketful of extra magazines as well as cotton cloth and medical tape in their back pocket pockets just in case someone took a hit. We came across some hombres about 25 with backpacks and the leader was armed with an AK 47 and so was the second man behind him as they crossed our fenceline. The last one in line also had an AK. They saw us about the same time we saw them and as always their shots went over our heads as they scartted and hightailed it back towards the river as we lite their ass with with 223 bullets from our Mini-14 Rugers. I guess they would be back later that same night or others, Nothing any different than the last hundred years anyway, same o same o just another day on the Border.

 

Back to the subject here. Nothing is more important than placing your first shot right to stop a fight and standing still in a fight is not the greatest idea and from what I have witnessed everone is getting the hell out of the way anyway after the first shot is fired. One thing I picked up here was not having your gun ready when the trouble goes past talking it out. I carry 100% of the time I am awake and because of where I am at times I never know whats next. I am a great beleaver of having your weapon ready and close at hand when you first know you may need it and that includes having it in your hand with safty off if at all possible without the other dude knowing it. Some time ago I told about an experence in a friends resturant where a dude was acting like he was going to try to rob the place. I ask my friend for a towel and with my 45 in my hand hid under the towel out of his sight but on my table in front of me I looked him in the eyes and was ready when he made his move should he try it. He knew I was onto him and decided to move on. A couuple of days later the same dude killed the man and wife just down the street after they had give him all the money.

 

This is a very serious subject and the more you know what to expect the better your odds will be.

Texas Man

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I've read the full thread and I've seen one thing in common with most. CARRY EXTRA AMMO! You may not need it, but then again you just might. Personally I always carry a spare mag. My carry gun is a full sized XD40 with a 12 round mag and 1 chambered. I always carry a second mag. If I'm heading to an area that I'm not sure of, I'll carry a third mag. It's not that I'm scared or I'm out for trouble. I'm just ready. That is all that you can be. Ready.

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