Black Angus McPherson Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Brother King, Yep, you were on your property and within your rights, but, from your own description of the event it sounded to me like you were the one to make the contact adversarial as opposed to congenial. Just sayin' if things went downhill don't forget your contribution to the increasing grade. That's all I'm saying. Angus (I hate these "bad cop" stories. EVERYONE has one. I weren't there so I ain't second guessing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Brother King, Yep, you were on your property and within your rights, but, from your own description of the event it sounded to me like you were the one to make the contact adversarial as opposed to congenial. Just sayin' if things went downhill don't forget your contribution to the increasing grade. That's all I'm saying. Angus (I hate these "bad cop" stories. EVERYONE has one. I weren't there so I ain't second guessing.) Hey BAM, I would not make that call. Not being there...I can't be certain. However, the first controversial thing in BK's post was the officer asking him if he'd been drinking, which I don't find relevant. So, what are you basing your comment, "you were the one to make the contact adversarial as opposed to congenial?" Just asking... Regards, AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Not smart but perhaps experienced anyway. I do object to jumping to conclusions and the inevitable follow up posts with the stories of some stupid cop encounter. Everyone seems to have one. Or their brother does. :lol: funny guy dis UB guy.... Can you imagine the horror of being an OB/GYN or a urologist or a proctologist? The stories? My GAWD! The things we all suffer for lawr and owrda! Brother King, Yep, you were on your property and within your rights, but, from your own description of the event it sounded to me like you were the one to make the contact adversarial as opposed to congenial. Just sayin' if things went downhill don't forget your contribution to the increasing grade. That's all I'm saying. Angus When on MY property; it's my rules, BAP, especially when I'm within my rights. You may still be one of the un-touched who BELIEVE that LEO's are your friends in an investigation. You would be wrong. They're investigating. If you CHOOSE to give up your rights so be it. But, I won't, and I won't be trifled with nor twaddilized by some youngster who THINKS he can intimidate me. PERIOD. Sure, you try to keep it 'friendly' by 'cooperating'. That's when your criminal defense attorney shakes his head and says, "YOU IDIOT- you gave him probable cause by saying 'yes, officer, I've been drinking'. That continues his investigation when he has no probable cause until you gave it to him. That's all I'm saying... they're your rights until YOU give them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Hawk 60642 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 :lol: funny guy dis UB guy.... Can you imagine the horror of being an OB/GYN or a urologist or a proctologist? The stories? My GAWD! The things we all suffer for lawr and owrda! When on MY property; it's my rules, BAP, especially when I'm within my rights. You may still be one of the un-touched who BELIEVE that LEO's are your friends in an investigation. You would be wrong. They're investigating. If you CHOOSE to give up your rights so be it. But, I won't, and I won't be trifled with nor twaddilized by some youngster who THINKS he can intimidate me. PERIOD. Sure, you try to keep it 'friendly' by 'cooperating'. That's when your criminal defense attorney shakes his head and says, "YOU IDIOT- you gave him probable cause by saying 'yes, officer, I've been drinking'. That continues his investigation when he has no probable cause until you gave it to him. That's all I'm saying... they're your rights until YOU give them up. Oh NO....................................... Whiskey's warmin' up her swingin' arm !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 It seems these LEO threads eventually turn sour, some faster than others. Like the others, I wish this one would go away... My 2 cents, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Steel Duke Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 "We are on a record pace for officers killed in the line of duty this year, with thousands more injured critically enough to never be able to return to duty, I spent 40 years of my life as a police officer and no I wont sit quietly and watch my brothers denigrated by those whose only experience in law enforcement is what they see from he safety their recliner." As a retired LEO and proud father of an Officer, I agree with this 1000%. I can guarantee that for every negative/anti LEO article published, there are 100 that go unpublished. Understanding that a vast majority of Officers are hard working and honest, especially the ones of this forum, I question the motive for posting this question? Were you expecting us to defend the Officer or decry our profession? Just an honest question. BSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 I question the motive for posting this question? Were you expecting us to defend the Officer or decry our profession? Just an honest question. BSD I was wondering what the heck an ordinary citizen is supposed to do when confronted with a LEO telling you to do one thing but the law telling you to do another. Do you ignore his orders and tell him you have a permit? Or do you break the law and do what he says? Is there some point where a citizen can tell a LEO that he is out of line, and if so, how? I really have no idea. My last 'official' encounter with LE was as I was just pulling out from in front of my house (expired tags) and we ended up talking about the cannon out front (yes, it's real but not original civil war era. No, I won't fire it for you now). Humorous encounter a few months later - after I got the new tags - at a gas station saw a LEO pulling on a vest that had "Parole" on it in big letters, I asked him if he needed back up, he got a puzzled look, then saw the cannon in tow and almost bust a gut laughing. I think he liked the thought of whoever he was getting ready to visit seeing that large bore trained on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I was wondering what the heck an ordinary citizen is supposed to do when confronted with a LEO telling you to do one thing but the law telling you to do another. Do you ignore his orders and tell him you have a permit? Or do you break the law and do what he says? Is there some point where a citizen can tell a LEO that he is out of line, and if so, how? +1...Well said... thanks for the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Steel Duke Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 "I was wondering what the heck an ordinary citizen is supposed to do when confronted with a LEO telling you to do one thing but the law telling you to do another" If I misunderstood your motive/question, I apologize. To answer the above question I would remind you and everyone else that speaking when told to be quiet is not breaking the law, in fact it would exonerate you later if the Officer were to charge you (assuming you were legally carrying the weapon). It is your duty and obligation to inform a LEO of your weapon whether he wants to hear it or not. This Officer needs help/counseling/re-assignment/retirement ASAP. BSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 "I was wondering what the heck an ordinary citizen is supposed to do when confronted with a LEO telling you to do one thing but the law telling you to do another" If I misunderstood your motive/question, I apologize. To answer the above question I would remind you and everyone else that speaking when told to be quiet is not breaking the law, in fact it would exonerate you later if the Officer were to charge you (assuming you were legally carrying the weapon). It is your duty and obligation to inform a LEO of your weapon whether he wants to hear it or not. This Officer needs help/counseling/re-assignment/retirement ASAP. BSD Now, if I understand you here, you are saying that when a cops orders run counter to the law - being told to keep quite when trying to inform him that one is armed - the ordinary citizen should ignore that order and keep talking? I don't think LEOs realize just how knee-knocking, bladder loosening it can be for us sometimes. "OHGAWD! Do I look like someone who just shot a cop? Was a car like mine just involved in (name your favorite violent crime)?" Face it WE do NOT get training in this, other than a brief "Do what the officer tells you if you get stopped" in drivers ed. Nor do we face it every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Steel Duke Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 "Now, if I understand you here, you are saying that when a cops orders run counter to the law - being told to keep quite when trying to inform him that one is armed - the ordinary citizen should ignore that order and keep talking?" The legal requirement to inform the Officer supersedes his desire for you to be quiet. I'll do my best to find an ordinance against illegal talking, but I wouldn't hold my breath, and in case you were going to quote the Disorderly Conduct violation, it usually involves the content of the speech and not the act itself. BSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I was wondering what the heck an ordinary citizen is supposed to do when confronted with a LEO telling you to do one thing but the law telling you to do another. Do you ignore his orders and tell him you have a permit? Or do you break the law and do what he says? Is there some point where a citizen can tell a LEO that he is out of line, and if so, how? I really have no idea. My last 'official' encounter with LE was as I was just pulling out from in front of my house (expired tags) and we ended up talking about the cannon out front (yes, it's real but not original civil war era. No, I won't fire it for you now). Humorous encounter a few months later - after I got the new tags - at a gas station saw a LEO pulling on a vest that had "Parole" on it in big letters, I asked him if he needed back up, he got a puzzled look, then saw the cannon in tow and almost bust a gut laughing. I think he liked the thought of whoever he was getting ready to visit seeing that large bore trained on him. Please tell the officer you are armed if that is a requirement of the law (it isn’t here) then right or wrong follow his instructions and be quiet. Nothing positive will ever come from arguing with an officer. If you feel that you have been mistreated and it does sometimes happen reduce your complaint to writing and file it with his supervisor the next day when tempers have cooled, and send an additional copy of the complaint to the station commander for his review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 "Now, if I understand you here, you are saying that when a cops orders run counter to the law - being told to keep quite when trying to inform him that one is armed - the ordinary citizen should ignore that order and keep talking?" The legal requirement to inform the Officer supersedes his desire for you to be quiet. I'll do my best to find an ordinance against illegal talking, but I wouldn't hold my breath, and in case you were going to quote the Disorderly Conduct violation, it usually involves the content of the speech and not the act itself. BSD I'm not thinking of any charges that may or may not be brought up, I'm thinking of the very real possibility of the cop feeling that someone is being stubborn, uncooperative or threatening and shooting him. And your advice runs counter to that of others here, they have said to do what the cop says. In principal I agree with you, do what the law requires no matter what the cop says. But it that the wise thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm not thinking of any charges that may or may not be brought up, I'm thinking of the very real possibility of the cop feeling that someone is being stubborn, uncooperative or threatening and shooting him. And your advice runs counter to that of others here, they have said to do what the cop says. In principal I agree with you, do what the law requires no matter what the cop says. But it that the wise thing to do? I'm not sure where or how you formed your opinion of law enforcement officers, but they don't shoot you for being "stubborn, uncooperative, or threatening". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Steel Duke Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm not sure where or how you formed your opinion of law enforcement officers, but they don't shoot you for being "stubborn, uncooperative, or threatening". I agree sir. I would expect Rodney King, Al Sharpton or Jesse to make a comment like that. BSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Angus McPherson Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Allie, I'll try to answer your question within the quote. I dont know how to change font color so I'll underline. This 4th of July weekend I came home from the Hell On Wheels shoot at about 4pm to find two of my adult aged sons hosting a party on our farm with about 10 of their buddies. Of course, there was some beer involved as well as a very fast 4 wheeler. They had been taking turns flying up and down our 1/2 mile gravel road; doing burnouts in the dirt and generally comporting themselves in a way that would make any father 1st shake his head.... and then have a beer and ride the 4 wheeler! Anyway, the sheriff deputy showed up just after I finished unloading my truck of guns, ammunition, gun cart, etc. First he said that 'an individual' called saying that there was a party on my property, but that it wasn't me or anyone related to me. I made a point of thanking him for coming; agreed that it could have appeared that way; assured the deputy that it was in fact "my property" and that my sons and their friends were just being boys, not hurting anyone and were, in fact, there with my permission. He asked if I had been drinking Someone asked what this question had to do with anything: Well, there WERE guns around and it's a natural question in such a situation. It's part of the job to try to get all the facts, even if it's to suggest that the guns be put away until the booze is no longer a factor. and I responded that what I do on my property is my business. This may be taken as adversarial, depending on tone. I didn't read it as such. He then demanded my ID. "Demanded" MAY have been the start or maybe asking for ID was seen by BK as threatening/adversarial. Again, it's the tone. I told him it was in my front pocket and asked permission to get it (I was still dressed pretty western.) I handed him my CO DL as well as my CO CCW issued by his Sheriff. His reply was "Why did you give me this, are you armed?" I said "no" but that it was a 2nd ID with the same address as the 1st ID and that should satisfy the complaint that he stated was the reason for his visit. I don't see any problem with the contact up to this point. He replied that he wasn't finished with his investigation yet. I asked if his dash camera was turned on? He looked back at the car and said, "Yes". I then told him that he was on my property and that I had proven my right to be there and that it was time for him to go. This seems like an obvious attempt to intimidate/dominate the officer. Why the need to be sure you have an audience? I've seen it before when the crowd pulls out their cell phones and starts recording. They hope to get something,anything, the officer might say or do wrong. Often trying to force a bad situation worse. That's just life as a cop. There is no doubt things go downhill from here. He exploded, "I'm being polite to you. Do you want me to take you in for questioning?" I told him that I was being polite, too, and that his taking me anywhere would make my day if his dash camera was actually recording this conversation. He then called in my ID and of course he received "no wants, warrants". I went on to explain that I had just provided him with not 1 but 2 legal CO ID's. Explained the situation to him politely once again and stated that he was now trespassing on my property. I asked him 3 times each in response to his further questioning, ("how much have you had to drink?" "do you have firearms in your possession?" "do you have any other evidence that this is your property?") "AM I UNDER ARREST? Then will you please leave?". The boys (like little munchkins) were all peeking from around their trucks. After the deputy left they decided it would be a GREAT idea to go hit balls at the driving range. Better thought out... it was decided that maybe it would be a good idea to quit drinking and call for chinese food delivery first. So it ended up costing me $100 to feed them anyway. But, having never had the experience of being threatened to be "taken in", it's pretty easy to see how intimidating it is and how quickly it could go downhill fast. BK, I'm not telling you to give up your rights, but what is your point in ordering the officer off your property if not trying to force some sort of issue? Where do you give up your rights just talking to the guy for a couple minutes? Yeah ok, "Right to remain silent", so just shut up. Looks to me like he was just asking simple and obvious questions. (Until he got stupid with the "Do you want me to lock you up?" stuff) Looks like both sides had "issues" to me. Angus p.s. Deadwood, I agree, I hate all these things and usually just try to ignore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Allie, I'll try to answer your question within the quote. I dont know how to change font color so I'll underline. BK, I'm not telling you to give up your rights, but what is your point in ordering the officer off your property if not trying to force some sort of issue? Where do you give up your rights just talking to the guy for a couple minutes? Yeah ok, "Right to remain silent", so just shut up. Looks to me like he was just asking simple and obvious questions. (Until he got stupid with the "Do you want me to lock you up?" stuff) Looks like both sides had "issues" to me. Angus p.s. Deadwood, I agree, I hate all these things and usually just try to ignore them. Yes, actually BAP, you are. And I won't. It's my experience that it's always STUPID in the extreme and you can't go back and fix it without spending a fortune on attorneys. The officer wasn't within HIS rights and knew that I was within mine. He also knew that he'd be viewing that piece of film for training for a long time. You obviously don't understand the question about "just talking to the guy for a couple of minutes". BUT! you do state that you understand that alcohol and guns don't mix. Why would you invite a further inquiry when it's just NONE OF HIS BUSINESS? I'd suggest you spend $100 and go visit an attorney to advise you about just what you should do as a citizen when stopped by an officer. Bet you thought the guy on the street vid was confrontational, too, when he refused to give the cop his ID. Good luck- but then I'm sure you think it will just never happen to you. OR.. maybe you have lots of money to "FIX" it later in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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