Bull Creek Cole Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have some .451" 200gr lead RNFP i bought to reload 45 acp and was wondering if they would be O.K. to reload in my Ruger NMV Bisley. I am new to cowboy reloading and have only reloaded lead .452" in the past. I don't want to load any more 200gr for my Colt 1911 because they have a different point of impact than the 230gr. Any comments and advice is appreciated. Bull Creek Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throckmorton,23149 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I think they will just slide down the barrel instead of engaging the rifleing .Also,they may flame cut and lead up the barrel. I would not try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Howdy The simple answer is yes. The complicated answer is it all depends on the diameter of your chamber throats. The front, narrow portion of your chambers. Believe it or not, they can vary. The simplest test you can do is to remove the cylinder from the pistol and point it at the ground. Drop one of the bullets into a chamber. Does it get stuck? Does it fall right through? If it falls right through it is probably to small. Shooting undersized bullets will certainly work, but undersized bullets allow some of the combustion gasses from the burning gunpowder to escape around the sides of the bullet. This tends to soften the lead which can in turn lead to leading. Sheesh. In other words the softened lead melts enough that it gets 'soldered' to the chamber throat and/or the bore of the barrel. Leading like this should be avoided as it is difficult to remove and can allow moisture to be trapped underneath, which can lead to corrosion. Does it get stuck? Ideally, a bullet that is a good diameter for the chamber throat will just barely hang up in the chamber throat. Moderate pressure with a pen or stick should be all that is required to shove it through the chamber throat. That is ideal. Then you have a good bullet to chamber throat fit and leading will be at a minimum. If it gets stuck and requires a whole lot of pressure to shove it through, the bullet is probably too large. Highly unlikely with .451 bullets in 45 Colt chambers. In the time I have been typing this, probably somebody will tell you that you need to slug your bore. Ideally that is true, but practically speaking manufacturers these days do a very good job of holding barrel groove dimensions to the standard of .451 that has been in used for 45 Colt since 1956. Ideally, with a lead bullet, you want the bullet to be .001 oversize of the barrel groove diameter. So .452 would be ideal for a .451 diameter barrel groove. But if your chamber throats happen to be over sized, which is very common with 45 Colt revolvers, that ideal bullet may still leave some leading behind in the chamber throats. It all boils down to chamber throat diameter and their relationship with barrel groove diameter. If you perform my test, be sure to try it in all six chambers. They can vary slightly. The gun will tell you whether or not it wants to shoot those bullets. P.S. A 451 bullet will not slide down the barrel without engaging the rifling. It will engage it just fine. Land diameter is several thousandths less than groove diameter, and a .451 bullet will be swaged in the barrel to conform to the rifling. However there may be a teeny amount of gas leaking by, causing a small amount of leading, but I doubt if there will be very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 They will work just fine Cheers, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Driftwod is correct ...... with one minor (Big) exception. Ruger cylinders are notorious for undersize chamber throats. Most Rugers I work on have throat diameter down around 449 or at best, 450. this results in the bullet being swaged down to the throat size and then rattling down the bore and shooting a group about the size of a pie plate. Step one should be to slug your bore. Again, Driftwood is correct, the manufacturers get the bore size correct 99% of the time. Most of the manufacturers get the throats "close." Except Ruger. Drop your .451 bullet down the chamber and see if it sticks. If it sticks, and doesn't tap thru with a stick, the throat is too tight and needs to be reamed. The bullet should initially stick and then "tap" through with a light rap from a small mallet and a stick. If it just drops thru, the throat is probably a mite oversize and your stuck with it. It is MUCH better for the throat to be a mite oversize than too tight. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Coffinmaker's got the right advice. Chamber throats that are too small cause more problems and yet it's one of the easiest and least expensive fixes that can be done. I think it was about two years ago I was having serious leading, fouling, and accuracy problems with my Rugers. Based on info from various sites & forums I checked the cylinder throats. Inconsistent would be too kind a word ... one of them was down to .446". I reamed them all out to .452" and things improved immensely. Regarding .451" bullets, that .001" won't make a bit of difference. They'll obdurate slightly on firing, and getting slammed into and squeezed through the forcing cone will essentially size them to fit the particular gun in about a millisecond. As long as the bullets will go through the throat with even just a bit of drag you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have some .451" 200gr lead RNFP i bought to reload 45 acp and was wondering if they would be O.K. to reload in my Ruger NMV Bisley. I am new to cowboy reloading and have only reloaded lead .452" in the past. I don't want to load any more 200gr for my Colt 1911 because they have a different point of impact than the 230gr. Any comments and advice is appreciated. Bull Creek Cole FWIW - I have three Ruger NV's, all .45, and all will lightly hold a .452 bullet in the cylinder holes (all six on each), a light touch with a pencil popped them out! I'd say that the cylinder size is about as accurate as my bullet caster is in making them at .452! I get 1 hole groups with the right loads - so I know the Ruger is up to the job. I'd use up the .451's that you have, and not worry about getting precision groups, knowing that at least they'll work safely at this game, and you can get more properly sized bullets later. Good luck, Shadow Catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Creek Cole Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks to all for your your responses. As it turns out, they are very insightful. I went out and got the micrometer and mic'd my bullets and chambers. The bullets were pretty consistent at slightly over .451". I dropped them into the chambers and tapped lightly with a wooden rod. I found that 2 cylinders (#4 and #6) popped out and the other four were wedged in and protruding out at varoius distances. I used a small hammer to tap the rod on the bullets in the remaining four chambers and found that two of them (#2 and #5) popped out with light tapping. The last two chambers (#1 and #3) took more than a light tap to pop them out. Next, I mic'd the chambers and got the following results: 1. .449" 2. .450" 3. .449" 4. .451" 5. .450" 6. .451" As you can see, there is a max spread of .002" between chamber diameters. Colorado Coffinmaker called it right when he said the Ruger chambers were undersized and I would get pie plate sized groups (which I have), and Captain Woodrow Wilson was also called it right when he said that the chambers were inconsistent. Based on my measurements, I might be better off shooting the smaller .451" bullets than trying to squeeze a larger diameter bullet through the tightly constricted chambers. I guess I'll try to reload some and see what happens. And I thought it was just my bad shooting that was scattering holes all over the target. Now I can tell my shooting buddies that the pards at SASS have explained that the chambers are the problem -- not me. Thanks again for all the help (and an excuse for bad shooting). Bull Creek Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 If you did not use a Pin Gauge for your measurements of the cylinder throats, you could be off by a .001" or so. The use of a Pin Gauge and a Micrometer will give you a more accurate measurement. Or use a .452" bullet, tap the bullet thru the cylinder throat. Then with a Micrometer and not a Caliber do the measurement. This would be for each throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 The unmentioned variable is bullet hardness. If the bullet is Brinell 12 or less, it should upset at the base to fill the barrel diameter when fired due to pressure at the bullet base. My recommendation is to simply try some. If you are getting full, consistent powder burn and find rifling marks on the bullets, then it should be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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