Marshall John Joseph Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You probably know that getting a "Chinese" double is nearly impossible - new. EAA has announced that it will be importing the Baikals again, and the coach gun is back. http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220F.pdf They say it has "real hammers", but I think they set the firing pins. But word has it that they will be available, with hopefully the "parts" support that is needed. I own one that I got several years ago and it is very nice - but they are not rebounding hammers. Fit and finish is very nice. Hope this is not too old news. MJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 That is great news! Both the internal hammer and external hammered versions are back. And the single trigger option as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 For some reason my two trigger version really beats up my middle finger when I use it. I have used at least a half dozen doubles over the years and this is the only one I have had this happen with but my finger was actually swollen after use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Sure looks like a real hammer, exposed firing pin jobbie to me. I Like my hammerless Bailkal a bunch. Good to see em back online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Downloaded the catalog, shows only 26" and 28" bbls. What happened to the 20" Coach gun??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You probably know that getting a "Chinese" double is nearly impossible - new. EAA has announced that it will be importing the Baikals again, and the coach gun is back. http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220F.pdf They say it has "real hammers", but I think they set the firing pins. But word has it that they will be available, with hopefully the "parts" support that is needed. I own one that I got several years ago and it is very nice - but they are not rebounding hammers. Fit and finish is very nice. Hope this is not too old news. MJJ MJJ, The Baikal is made in Russia, not China. That is great news! Both the internal hammer and external hammered versions are back. And the single trigger option as well. Looks like the single trigger version is only in a 26" or 28" at least for now. Downloaded the catalog, shows only 26" and 28" bbls.What happened to the 20" Coach gun??? I talked to the EAA folks last year at the SHOTshow and they told me they would not be importing them because of the price but would be supporting the guns with parts as long as they had parts. Then later, back in the fall of last year I called them to order more parts and they told me then that EAA was working on a new import deal with Baikal and the guns should be available 2011. As promised last week they sent me the latest fliers and yes the Baikals are back. But, at this time there is only two 20" guns both 12gage. The MP220-489548 is the two trigger, internal hammer, cylinder bore in all blue. The MP220-489546 is the two trigger external hammer (rear working hammers) and comes with scew-in chokes. This is the correct link to the current offerings. The internal hammered gun isn't pictured but is listed the specs. BAIKAL SHOTGUNS For some reason my two trigger version really beats up my middle finger when I use it. I have used at least a half dozen doubles over the years and this is the only one I have had this happen with but my finger was actually swollen after use. Bob, When I can get them I use pencil pillows over the trigger guard to cushion your finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall John Joseph Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 If you go to my link above, it will get you to the catalog page. You might also try going to USSG (United States Sporting Goods) - still EAA. They have it as well in their catalog online. The external hammers are cocking hammers - they cock internal firing pins. When you pull the trigger, the hammer falls but does not strike a rebounding firing pin assembly. The pulling of the trigger releases an internal "modern" firing pin as well as releasing the hammer. It looks like the hammer strikes, but it does not. This is at least what the receptionist says they are - it is the way mine is; I have a Bakial. It really is a nice shotgun - fit and finish. These new ones will have choke tubes as well and a metal butt plate - at least that's what the catalog says. I know that they will sell for about $379.00 at discount. I wish they had rebounding hammers, but .... I understand that some years back, Bakial did make a rebounding hammer double that looked exactly like the cocking hammer one. I never saw one. Sure would like to . They are expecting a shipment at the end of the month. Now convince them to make a 10 gauge. I probably don't know the ins and outs of gun design and marketing, but if Bakial is marketing this double specifically for the Cowboy crowd (as their ad says) why in the Heck don't they make an 1878 desgin with rebounding hammers like the TTN? Is it cost prohibitive? I realize that current production follows the manufacturing of all their other doubles, but how much different is the design/how much more could it cost to produce? Inquiring (begging minds) want to know. What good would this site be if we can't complain? MJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 MJJ,Looks like the single trigger version is only in a 26" or 28" at least for now. Howdy Nate, looks here like the single trigger option is avalible in 20''. How reliable are they?? I currently shoot two Charels Daly 306 single triggers and really like them, but they are out of business and no parts avalible. http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220.pdf Thanks, Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall John Joseph Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 I may have spoken too soon and to the wrong person at EAA. Googling the model IZH43KH which the catalog says it is like, they are REAL WORKING HAMMERS. This is what I found: "MODEL: IZH43KH COWBOY - we have taken the IZH43K and made the cocking hammers into real external hammers. We call this new gun the IZH43KH (Bounty Hunter II). You may ask yourself, why fix a gun that's not broken? Well you, the customer wanted real working hammers on a side by side built by Baikal. We kept the traditional looks = Made traditional shaped real external hammers = Included a whole new auto safety system that blocks the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled = Packaged it in one of the nicest side by sides Baikal ever built." I remember now that months ago, I asked Nate Kiowa Jones (Steve Young) - pretty much an expert on these guns, about the Bakial external hammered guns. He wrote: "The second version [iZH43KH] has no internal hammers. Inside it has a tumbler type sear with a shaft going out to actual hammers. But in order to get the firing pins to the outside they were shaped sort of like a crank shaft. One end on the outside to line up with the hammer then this firing pin offsets back to the center-line of the bore to hit the primer. The progression of cartridge firing SXS's basically started with fixed barrel SXS muzzle loaders that were then converted to hinged barrels. These were known as back lock guns. The locks being mounted to the wood separate from the receiver. Next were the back lock guns like your TTN 1878. Most hammered SXS's come in this category but there were many back locks that were internal hammered gun as well. Next were the boxlock gun like the Baikal internal hammer guns. The lock or fire control parts are mounted in the receiver, not separate. I'm not sure exactly when the first boxlocks came out but I pretty sure it was after the turn of the century early 1900's. Neither one of these guns are reproductions of any historical firearm. They are kinds similar to a hammer gun that Stevens/Salvage made in the 1920/30's. It too was a boxlock with external hammers but the receiver was much more narrow to allow the hammers to line up with the center of the bore." Whatever the case may be, whoever sees one of these new Bakial Cowboys first, let us (me) know. "Be careful of what you wish for, it may come true" MJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 For some reason my two trigger version really beats up my middle finger when I use it. I have used at least a half dozen doubles over the years and this is the only one I have had this happen with but my finger was actually swollen after use. Bob I've reshaped tha pistol grip of all mine and several others with a rasp to where ya finger has a place to get back away from tha guard. You can't tell tha difference looking at them but it makes it where there's no impact. Send me ya stock and I'll shape and refinish it. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Wonder if they brought back tha old style ext or if they left tha dern REM hourglass EXT in????? RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I may have spoken tooI remember now that months ago, I asked Nate Kiowa Jones (Steve Young) - pretty much an expert on these guns, about the Bakial external hammered guns. He wrote: "The second version [iZH43KH] has no internal hammers. Inside it has a tumbler type sear with a shaft going out to actual hammers. But in order to get the firing pins to the outside they were shaped sort of like a crank shaft. One end on the outside to line up with the hammer then this firing pin offsets back to the center-line of the bore to hit the primer. The progression of cartridge firing SXS's basically started with fixed barrel SXS muzzle loaders that were then converted to hinged barrels. These were known as back lock guns. (That is correct) The locks being mounted to the wood separate from the receiver. Next were the back lock guns like your TTN 1878. Most hammered SXS's come in this category but there were many back locks that were internal hammered gun as well. (That's wrong. I should have said side lock) Next were the boxlock gun like the Baikal internal hammer guns. The lock or fire control parts are mounted in the receiver, not separate. ....................Whatever the case may be, whoever sees one of these new Bakial Cowboys first, let us (me) know. "Be careful of what you wish for, it may come true" MJJ Wonder if they brought back tha old style ext or if they left tha dern REM hourglass EXT in????? RRR I'm betting it will be the taller hour-glass version. But, it's not hard to fix if you have a drill press with a drill press vise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 If you go to my link above, it will get you to the catalog page. You might also try going to USSG (United States Sporting Goods) - still EAA. They have it as well in their catalog online. The external hammers are cocking hammers - they cock internal firing pins. When you pull the trigger, the hammer falls but does not strike a rebounding firing pin assembly. The pulling of the trigger releases an internal "modern" firing pin as well as releasing the hammer. It looks like the hammer strikes, but it does not. This is at least what the receptionist says they are - it is the way mine is; I have a Bakial. It really is a nice shotgun - fit and finish. These new ones will have choke tubes as well and a metal butt plate - at least that's what the catalog says. I know that they will sell for about $379.00 at discount. I wish they had rebounding hammers, but .... I understand that some years back, Bakial did make a rebounding hammer double that looked exactly like the cocking hammer one. I never saw one. Sure would like to . They are expecting a shipment at the end of the month. Now convince them to make a 10 gauge. [ I probably don't know the ins and outs of gun design and marketing, but if Bakial is marketing this double specifically for the Cowboy crowd (as their ad says) why in the Heck don't they make an 1878 desgin with rebounding hammers like the TTN? Is it cost prohibitive? I realize that current production follows the manufacturing of all their other doubles, but how much different is the design/how much more could it cost to produce? Inquiring (begging minds) want to know. What good would this site be if we can't complain? MJJ Howdy: Normally, when they advertise REAL external hammers they are speaking about just that (rebounding hammers), I have three with REAL external hammers. The other type you mention are called cocking levers. I believe the one in the catalog is of the REAL external hammer variety , not the cocking lever type (I have three of those also) - cocking lever were a intermediate form of transition - not too popular, but just as functional. STL Suomi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diablo slim shootist Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 For some reason my two trigger version really beats up my middle finger when I use it. I have used at least a half dozen doubles over the years and this is the only one I have had this happen with but my finger was actually swollen after use. Bob dont feel alone on that one -ouch-big bruise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Howdy Nate, looks here like the single trigger option is avalible in 20''. How reliable are they?? I currently shoot two Charels Daly 306 single triggers and really like them, but they are out of business and no parts avalible. http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220.pdf Thanks, Jefro I have an old hammerless 26" single trigger Baikal. It has been completely totally reliable for years now. I love that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Howdy Nate, looks here like the single trigger option is avalible in 20''. How reliable are they?? I currently shoot two Charels Daly 306 single triggers and really like them, but they are out of business and no parts avalible. http://www.eaacorp.com/pdfs/guns/BaikalMP220.pdf Thanks, Jefro Jefro, I think that is one of their old links. I have had the same link and still do from their old listing from about 2009.Maybe they will import those again. I hope so but the current flier and the most current link doesn't show them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUCO SASS #46748 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I just pickup a new hammerless dbl 12ga single trigger 26" IZH43 from GB. Got it for $305.00 plus $25.00 sh. Looks good, been using Win 97. Like to try a dbl for a couple of matches. I hope the old models are good. Later Don Tuco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You probably know that getting a "Chinese" double is nearly impossible - new..... I talked to the EAA guy at a dealer show today. He said the hammered Baikals are "on the water" (on the way) and the dealer price is $325. But regarding the chinese TTN (Cimarron) '78 shotguns, there is one more shipment of 500 guns on the way. They may be already spoken for with backorders, mostly from distributors. If you want one, your dealer may be able to get it from a distributor (Ellet Bros, Accusport, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 What do you mean, Abilene? Are ye saying the 78 is discontinued or what? As popular as it is I would think the Chinese would be running that assembly line 24/7... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Lone Dog, there have not been any shipments of the '78's for quite some time and the word was that there would be no more. Then I heard about this shipment. I was told that it is possible there might be more afterward but that is not known at this time. I cannot say why (don't know). I agree that as popular as that shotgun has been, it would seem to make sense to keep making them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Lone Dog, there have not been any shipments of the '78's for quite some time and the word was that there would be no more. Then I heard about this shipment. I was told that it is possible there might be more afterward but that is not known at this time. I cannot say why (don't know). I agree that as popular as that shotgun has been, it would seem to make sense to keep making them. Could be politics. Every time we get a liberal admin they tend to mess with the Chinese gun imports. Klinton got the Norinco 1911's,SKS's and m1A copy. The TTN deal started during the last Bush admin with the intend of possible making CAS rifles but Norinco got caught selling to Iran and that all fell through. Could be there's not enough incentive for the Chinese company to continue with them. The CAS market isn’t big enough to support just one gun. BTW, I got the Price list today for the Baikals. They are up but less than 10% at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Well ain't that a fine kettle of fish. I have a CCH TTN coach gun that I love so much that I bought a blued Cimarron for a back-up as I cannot imagine being without a 78. I was thinking about using the blued one for trade goods but I think not now. It will stay in the box, just in case... Man I wish I coulda got me hands on one a those 26" CCH TTNs but they were rare as hen's teeth and even more so now...dashnaggit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'm new and have only shot stoeger, my next might have to be one of these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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