Eot starting position

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Have to disagree with you, my friend.

The stage conventions exist to provide direction in the ABSENCE of a given instruction.

 

The moment an instruction is given that offers ANY specified or POSSIBLE deviation from the stage conventions - the convention is then over ridden and the written stage instruction or allowance takes precedence in that instance.

 

Example - shotgun begins staged on left table; there is no specified or possible deviation from the stage convention - so lying flat is the default.

 

BUT - staged ANYWHERE safely offers that deviation from the stage convention.  This opens up the possibility for vertical staging, staging on a fence post or hanging over a horse rail or two by four.

 

If you allow me to borrow your car and upon return - I know standard practice is your car is parked backed into your garage - and you don't say anything differently; I know that is where I am expected to place it.  (that is stage convention).

 

If I borrow your car and YOU specifically add the caveat "Park it anywhere safely" - I no longer am expected to back it into your garage (I may still do so - but am no longer required to).  By inserting an instruction that POTENTIALLY or specifically deviates from the norm - you have released me from adhering to the norm.  (that is a stage specific over riding instruction or allowance).

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh..............Creeker and Bull..............going at it on the playground.  Dis gonna be gooooood. 

 

You can't cherry pick.  You only capitalized ANYWHERE.  Also have to include SAFELY.  Stage conventions say long guns staged safe is flat. As TW said, if vertical, fence post, etc were to be included the instructions would have needed to say that.  And that would be easy enough without requiring a tome.  "Shotgun open and empty staged anywhere safely to include vertical, over the 2X4, etc."

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

SB,

Are you referring to EOT Stage Conventions per Posse Marshall sheets?  I find the long gun flat on table mentioned in #22 but IMO it is referring to when starting with long gun or revolvers.   However in Stage 6 and 11 because of board it was specified in walk thru that rifle was flat and not on board.  Interpretation of shotgun safely seemed to have "drifted" on Stage six.

 

I never saw the Posse Marshall sheets.  I'm just going by the Shooter's Handbook. Based on that, I don't believe the Posse Marshalls needed to specify flat.  The fact that they did just shows all involved are going the extra mile to make EOT a great match. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh..............Creeker and Bull..............going at it on the playground.  Dis gonna be gooooood. 

 

You can't cherry pick.  You only capitalized ANYWHERE.  Also have to include SAFELY.  Stage conventions say long guns staged safe is flat. As TW said, if vertical, fence post, etc were to be included the instructions would have needed to say that.  And that would be easy enough without requiring a tome.  "Shotgun open and empty staged anywhere safely to include vertical, over the 2X4, etc."

 

IMO - Stage conventions only exist in the ABSENCE of an instruction.

That is 100% why stage conventions were created - that in the absence of a specific instruction or allowance; stage writers / shooters would be subjected to a default.

 

Stage conventions were not created to intermingle with the written stage instruction.

 

It is not required to parse and implement every word of the stage convention that the stage writer does not specifically exempt.

 

Written instruction OR stage convention; it is an either/ or situation.

 

This intermingling of written instruction AND stage convention is exactly why you see inconsistent application/ outcomes.

Attempting to combine written instruction AND stage conventions to extrapolate what exactly they are allowed to do.

 

Even to address your example;

shotgun/ rifle safely staged vertically at window.

IF that is what the stage writer provides - how do you reconcile that with the assertion that stage convention defines "safe" as lying flat and requires such to be safe?

You cannot.

 

As soon as ANY specific instruction is given; the written instruction over rides the stage convention that is applicable to that situation.

[Tennessee williams]

 

Difference in wording and some of our conventions....

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 with one thumb on your nose.

This means- You are to stand at position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of you must be at SASS default position because that is in our conventions. You may not have a thumb on your nose and be bent over double over your rifle.

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 at shooters' discretion with 1 thumb on your nose.

This means you are to stand behind position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of your body may be other than SASS default position because of the specified "shooters' discretion".

This does not mean you can be touching gun(s) or ammo because those specific conventions weren't overridden by the wording. 

 

So I have to partially disagree with Creeker.

Edited March 7 by Tennessee williams

[Shooting Bull]

48 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

IMO - Stage conventions only exist in the ABSENCE of an instruction.

That is 100% why stage conventions were created - that in the absence of a specific instruction or allowance; stage writers / shooters would be subjected to a default.

 

Stage conventions were not created to intermingle with the written stage instruction.

 

It is not required to parse and implement every word of the stage convention that the stage writer does not specifically exempt.

 

Written instruction OR stage convention; it is an either/ or situation.

 

This intermingling of written instruction AND stage convention is exactly why you see inconsistent application/ outcomes.

Attempting to combine written instruction AND stage conventions to extrapolate what exactly they are allowed to do.

 

Even to address your example;

shotgun/ rifle safely staged vertically at window.

IF that is what the stage writer provides - how do you reconcile that with the assertion that stage convention defines "safe" as lying flat and requires such to be safe?

You cannot.

 

As soon as ANY specific instruction is given; the written instruction over rides the stage convention that is applicable to that situation.

 

Taken to its logical conclusion, why include staging of guns in the instructions at all?  The stage conventions say that long guns will be staged flat and pistols will be holstered.  So unless I want to deviate from that, I shouldn't need to waste any ink saying it. 

 

As to vertical, the stage conventions don't preclude that from being safe.  Rather, that's the default safe. The old horse props we used to use would be a good example of safe but not flat when an open SxS was on them. 

[Shooting Bull]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Difference in wording and some of our conventions....

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 with one thumb on your nose.

This means- You are to stand at position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of you must be at SASS default position because that is in our conventions. You may not have a thumb on your nose and be bent over double over your rifle.

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 at shooters' discretion with 1 thumb on your nose.

This means you are to stand behind position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of your body may be other than SASS default position because of the specified "shooters' discretion".

This does not mean you can be touching gun(s) or ammo because those specific conventions weren't overridden by the wording. 

 

 

I don't like when you and I agree.  It's not as fun. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Difference in wording and some of our conventions....

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 with one thumb on your nose.

This means- You are to stand at position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of you must be at SASS default position because that is in our conventions. You may not have a thumb on your nose and be bent over double over your rifle.

 

Stage instructions-

Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 at shooters' discretion with 1 thumb on your nose.

This means you are to stand behind position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of your body may be other than SASS default position because of the specified "shooters' discretion".

This does not mean you can be touching gun(s) or ammo because those specific conventions weren't overridden by the wording. 

 

So I have to partially disagree with Creeker.

And there are a fair contingent - even among the RO committee that agree with you.

 

I just happen to be one that doesn't.

The conventions were written to "fill in the blanks" when stage writers failed to do so.

 

They were NOT written to create additional /supplemental required instruction that must be absorbed into the existing written instruction.

 

Ill provide yet another analogy.

Stage convention:

Your breakfast will consist of cereal served in a bowl with milk, a glass of orange juice and a sliced banana.

 

Written instruction:

Your breakfast will consist of eggs and bacon, coffee and an apple.

 

My interpretation: 

I'm getting eggs, bacon on a plate, coffee in a steaming mug and (hopefully) a green Granny Smith apple to bite into per written instruction.  The stage convention is no longer applicable because of written deviation from convention.

 

IF we insist anything not SPECIFICALLY exempted by written instruction is still required per convention:

Your eggs and bacon MUST be served in a BOWL - as a plate (even tho thats expected for eggs and bacon) was not over ridden and MUST have milk poured upon it.

Your coffee MUST be served in a GLASS - a mug was not over ridden.

And no biting into the skin and tearing it part with your teeth because your apple MUST be sliced - because sliced was not over ridden.

 

Anyone besides me see the silliness here?

At some point - someone in SASS decided they were better stage writers than us and that (like a lot of the rules) "that just doesn't look right" - so they over stepped.

 

And many lazy stage writers - who seem to think that each letter on the stage instruction costs them money; grabbed hold of the concept to make defaults their standard default.

 

And then others conflate and intermingle the instructions so every staging, body placement and hand positioning must be lawyered to determine what was said - what may have been left out and what terms from the conventions they feel needed to be added.

 

The game is supposed to be easy.

And the conventions to create consistency when the stage writer failed.

 

Attempting to intermingle, parse and insert every word of the stage conventions into over riding writen stage instructions is not making it easier and is not making it more consistent.

 

Edited March 7 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

I don't like when you and I agree.  It's not as fun. 

Bull, I have found you're almost always in agreement. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the wrong side of the argument.   

 

 

And before anyone takes offense - I am friends with Bull and Tennesee Williams.

And as such - I reserve the rights in perpetuity to mercilessly argue with them  the most minuscule and unimportant points.

[Hells Comin]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Bull, I have found you're almost always in agreement. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the wrong side of the argument.   

 

 

And before anyone takes offense - I am friends with Bull and Tennesee Williams.

And as such - I reserve the rights in perpetuity to mercilessly argue with them  the most minuscule and unimportant points.

I was wondering who your 2 friends were. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

9 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

I was wondering who your 2 friends were. 

Shhhh - they didn't know I considered them friends.

[Tennessee williams]

4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

As soon as ANY specific instruction is given; the written instruction over rides the stage convention that is applicable to that situation.

 

   Stage instructions say, "begin at position 2 with hands on hat".

   The shooter gives you the line and has hands on hat with body bent over the first long gun to be fired at position 2. What is your next action?

 

[Tyrel Cody]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

   Stage instructions say, "begin at position 2 with hands on hat".

   The shooter gives you the line and has hands on hat with body bent over the first long gun to be fired at position 2. What is your next action?

 

“Shooter standby”… Beeeeep!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

26 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

“Shooter standby”… Beeeeep!

Perfect.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

37 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

   Stage instructions say, "begin at position 2 with hands on hat".

   The shooter gives you the line and has hands on hat with body bent over the first long gun to be fired at position 2. What is your next action?

 

The stage convention says "If NO starting position then blah blah blah"

 

I contend that NO direction or instruction means exactly that; no - none - nada - zip - zilch.

And so by contrast if ANY direction or instruction is provided (no matter how vague or lacking) it is no longer NONE  - and by the very WORDS in the convention makes the convention moot.

 

The stage convention says if NO starting position; it does not say IF the starting position is somewhat incomplete or IF the details are vague - then use the convention to fill out the details.

 

As Tyrel said so eloquently;

Standby... BEEP.

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

“Shooter standby”… Beeeeep!

 

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The stage convention says "If NO starting position then blah blah blah"

 

I contend that NO direction or instruction means exactly that; no - none - nada - zip - zilch.

And so by contrast if ANY direction or instruction is provided (no matter how vague or lacking) it is no longer NONE  - and by the very WORDS in the convention makes the convention moot.

 

The stage convention says if NO starting position; it does not say IF the starting position is somewhat incomplete or IF the details are vague - then use the convention to fill out the details.

 

As Tyrel said so eloquently;

Standby... BEEP.

Sorry was at my daughters' practice. You would both be in the wrong to start the shooter in that position. This is the reason for the covenants. To keep everything level. 

 

Any exception to the SASS default(covenants) only applies to the exception. NOT all of it.

 

 

Edited March 8 by Tennessee williams
Bolded print

[Tennessee williams]

Took me a second but I found it. Here ya go.

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Took me a second but I found it. Here ya go.

 

With all due respect - until the convention is rewritten.

The RULEBOOK that every shooter receives reflects something different.

 

Yet another example of short sighted situational rules - people create bad rules and then double down by creating caveats to bad rules.

Then triple down by pretending that by creating caveats and conditions; they are doing anything beyond perpetuating the problem they themselves created.

 

And these minutes are from 2016 - it's now 2024 and the rulebook still reads as I read it.  

 

[Tennessee williams]

11 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

With all due respect - until the convention is rewritten.

The RULEBOOK that every shooter receives reflects something different.

 

Yet another example of short sighted situational rules - people create bad rules and then double down by creating caveats to bad rules.

Then triple down by pretending that by creating caveats and conditions; they are doing anything beyond perpetuating the problem they themselves created.

 

And these minutes are from 2016 - it's now 2024 and the rulebook still reads as I read it.  

 

Creeker I love ya but here it is quoted by PWB from 4 months ago. You were in that discussion too.

 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

You shouldn't just ignore the rules you disagree with or the interpretation thereof.  Just like some did at EOT, you are giving shooters an unfair advantage over the shooters whose TO is correctly starting them.