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Gunfighter reload


Make do
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First off, I think those that define "Gunfighter" as shooting with a gun in each hand are missing something.  Shooting Gunfighter really means firing 5 rounds from each hand and there is no real definition of how this is accomplished.  Most do indeed pull both handguns and alternate rounds, but it's not a requirement.  Stages that allow this are generally considered to be Gunfighter friendly and I like them, but I also have no problem with mixing it up a bit.  Frankly, I see Gunfighter as a chance to exercise my skills shooting with either hand and to be able to think through the scenarios and transitions to do so effectively.  At least in my opinion, Gunfighter style shooting represents the best challenge our sport has to offer and requires the utmost in due diligence and I really like that aspect of it.

 

Anyway, I don't see a double reload as a big disadvantage to a Gunfighter.  Just like being forced to shoot stages Double Duelist, a reload is probably not something I want to do often, but again I don't mind mixing it up a bit and in fact see it as an interesting challenge if not over used.  I surely wouldn't pack up my things a go home over it or even complain about it for that matter.  I'd simply figure out how I could best shoot the stage, then do so to the best of my ability and move on to the next stage.

 

As for the stage in question (I posted on this earlier in the thread), unless the stage instructions required shooting 10, then reloading the 2 extra rounds I would shoot Double Duelist, pull the first gun, load one cartridge in the empty chamber, then fire 6 rounds, holster and pull the other handgun and do the same thing.  This allows the Gunfighter to avoid unloading any empties and there is no need to index the cylinder afterward since all 6 chambers would then be loaded.  I realize that the rules state that each gun should be fired one handed and untouched by the other hand, but both guns would still be fired in this manner and the only time both hands would be on either handgun is during the extra load process.  I believe this to be perfectly legal and have yet to hear otherwise from Pale Wolf or others.  Anyway, this makes the most sense to me.  However, if the stage requirements do require shooting both guns dry before reloading, then I'd probably do as others have stated by holstering one handgun, kicking an empty out of the other and reloading the 2 extra rounds in the same gun as one operation. 

 

In any case, my point here is that wanting or expecting all stages to be "Gunfighter friendly' is in reality wanting a Gunfighter advantage rather than just being friendly.  Gunfighters need to be flexible, adaptable, and skilled to be successful and I don't have a problem with that!  Good luck and good shooting to all.  

     

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Bison Bud,

 

Obviously you have only been sorta inna rule book.  Gunfighter is defined as shooting "with a gun in each hand."  To shoot gunfighter, one must pull both guns at the same time.  If one pulls ones guns separately, one is shooting "Double Dualist."  There is the option of firing one gun dry before the other is fired, with both guns out at the same time.  A Gunfighter does have the option of shooting ANY stage Double Dualist at any time.

 

I do agree with your assessment of "Gunfighter Friendly" as I don't actually consider ANY stage as "Gunfighter Un-Friendly."  I do consider some stage writers as "Gunfighter Un-Friendly" when they direct a stage be shot "Double Dualist" which is really stupid.

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
I'll get you yet OTTO
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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Bison Bud,

 

Obviously you have only been sorta inna rule book.  Gunfighter is defined as shooting "with a gun in each hand."  To shoot gunfighter, one must pull both guns at the same time.  If one pulls ones guns separately, one is shooting "Double Dualist."  There is the option of firing one gun dry before the other is fired, with both guns out at the same time.  A Gunfighter does have the option of shooting ANY stage Double Dualist at any time.

 

I do agree with your assessment of "Gunfighter Friendly" as I don't actually consider ANY stage as "Gunfighter Un-Friendly."  I do consider some stage writers as "Gunfighter Un-Friendly" when the direct a stage be shot "Double Dualist" which is really stupid.


Gunfighter does not REQUIRE the shooter to shoot the stage with two guns out at the same time!!  It DOES require that the guns be fired “one in each hand, unsupported”. As stated earlier, those shooting Gunfighter may shoot split pistol stages one gun at a time, essentially “Double Duelist”.  Again, as stated in numerous posts and threads, a shooter in a Gunfighter category is allowed to present one pistol at a time so long as the guns are shot “one from each hand, unsupported”.

 

The act of shooting with both guns out at the same time is actually Gunfighter “STYLE”. This style is permitted in several SASS approved categories. 
 

It is important to differentiate for the purposes of this discussion. The OP began this thread to explore the rules and the possible questions that might arise when shooting the stage described.

 

Ol’ Bud’s been shooting Gunfighter a long time!

 

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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REALLY??  

 

Don't care how long "Ol' Bud's been shooting Gunfighter."  His original premise is  only partially correct.  Let us review "a Gun in EACH Hand."  Two guns out at the same time.  Fairly simple.

 

I also said the Gunfighter has the option to shoot one gun dry then shoot the other gun dry.  Both guns however, are "In Hand"  I also said the Gunfighter has the OPTION of shooting Double Dualist at any time.

 

The slightly grey area.  If a shooter claims Gunfighter as their category, then shoots the entire match Double Dualist, is the shooter actually shooting "out of category??"

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7 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...

The slightly grey area.  If a shooter claims Gunfighter as their category, then shoots the entire match Double Duelist, is the shooter actually shooting "out of category??"

 

NO.

 

Quote

o Only Gunfighter style or Double Duelist style may be used.

SHB p.6 - Gunfighter Rules

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Thanks PaleWolf.  We go back to a Gunfighter being able to shoot Double Dualist at any time on any stage.  And obviously, with clarification from PaleWolf, actually may shoot the entire match Double Dualist.  Whether I like it or not, is immaterial.

 

Also, I would have to amend my earlier post questioning Bison Bud.  I've only been shooting Gunfighter for 20 years and it never occurred to me, to go Double Dualist for an entire Match.

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Well I have had time to practice the advice I have gotten here and have found for myself the following. (See if it is legal)

 2 shot reload - my best times were shoot both dry - open loading gate  set left pistol down, half cock right pistol eject one and load two and rotate cylinder and fire.

If forced to load one in each pistol - shoot both dry- open both loading gates set left down - half cock right pistol - load one round rotate 3 clicks - set down right - repeat with the left - pick both up - go to full cock and fire. For me that was a little faster than doing double duelist. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Make do said:

Well I have had time to practice the advice I have gotten here and have found for myself the following. (See if it is legal)

 2 shot reload - my best times were shoot both dry - open loading gate  set left pistol down, half cock right pistol eject one and load two and rotate cylinder and fire.

If forced to load one in each pistol - shoot both dry- open both loading gates set left down - half cock right pistol - load one round rotate 3 clicks - set down right - repeat with the left - pick both up - go to full cock and fire. For me that was a little faster than doing double duelist. 

 

SDQ if you set the right pistol down with hammer on half-cock.

Make sure to fully decock after rotating 3 clicks.

Might consider advising the TO that the hammer will be down on an empty chamber.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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36 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

SDQ if you set the right pistol down with hammer on half-cock.

Make sure to fully decock after rotating 3 clicks.

Might consider advising the TO that the hammer will be down on an empty chamber.

 

 

Just to confirm I'm reading this right . . . 

 

When it's part of a reload on a stage, the shooter can decock a pistol without positive direction of the TO.

 

I get to this conclusion based on PWB's comments, and the SHB:

 

SHB., p. 14:

Safety & Handling Conventions – Revolvers

- No firearm may be decocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so.

 

SHB: p. 22:

SDQ penalties

- Decocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun to avoid penalty without positive direction to do so from the TO.

 

Am I reading this right? Since the decocking is part of a reload and not to avoid a penalty, it's not an SDQ? Or am I reading into the SHB?

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What I think PaleWolf is saying is, after the pistol is shot dry it can be decocked.  Holstering a pistol or putting it down, (unless you’re declaring it a malfunction) while the hammer isn’t completely down is a Stage Disqualification.  
 

Your best option is to not cock the pistol that you don’t intend to reload once it is shot dry.  Holster or stage it. Then reload the other pistol and complete the stage.

 

Basically, we’re talking about handling an empty revolver.  A pistol can’t leave your hand until the hammer is completely down.

 

Don’t confuse this with decoking a loaded gun!

 

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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If I had to do a reload for both pistols - I would shoot both dry - open the gate- set the left pistol down - right pistol to reload - rotate the correct number of click bring the hammer back to full cock and pull the trigger- then it would be safe to set it down and repeat with the left pistoI. Sounds like double duelist would be better in this case. 

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51 minutes ago, Make do said:

If I had to do a reload for both pistols - I would shoot both dry - open the gate- set the left pistol down - right pistol to reload - rotate the correct number of click bring the hammer back to full cock and pull the trigger- then it would be safe to set it down and repeat with the left pistoI. Sounds like double duelist would be better in this case. 


Only if the stage directions required a reload in each pistol.

 

Puttig down and then picking up that pistol takes extra time! Fire one round, open the gate and load one round. Then empty that gun. Holster the first pistol. Draw the second pistol and repeat!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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Until I read Colorado Coffinmaker's take on the gunfighter rules, I had thought they were clear - you can use either Gunfighter style OR Double Duelist style.   But as he points out, it also reads that if you're shooting Double Duelist you are by definition not shooting Gunfighter (as you don't have a revolver in each hand).

 

Quoting the handbook:

Gunfighter Style - Gunfighter style is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed. There is no set pattern as to how the revolvers are to be fired, but alternating revolvers is clearly the most efficient. - Gunfighter Rules: o Any main match fixed sight revolver may be used. o Only Gunfighter style or Double Duelist style may be used. o Any SASS legal main match shotgun and legal main match rifle may be used. o Any SASS legal ammunition may be used. (etc etc).

 

I recon that "Gunfighter style" and the "Gunfighter category" aren't the same thing.   The "style" is a revolver in each hand.   The "category" allows the two different styles.   

 

I would say it seems unusual to have been shooting Gunfighter for 20 years and not have come up against a split revolver scenario.   I've seen it a few times and have only been shooting for a couple of years.

 

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Bart,

 

Your miss-read my posts.  ALL of us who shoot Gunfighter have from time to time run into stages that require split-pistol with no prop for a re-stage.  In that instance, we have ALL shot that stage Double Duelist and reverted back to a "Gun in Each Hand" on the next stage.  Been doing that for decades.

 

What I said was "It never entered my mind to shoot an ENTIRE MATCH double duelist.  To me, that doesn't make much sense.  In the past, I didn't even think we could.  We can.  Doesn't mean I would.

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
I'll get you OTTO
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