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ROC - Changes needed?


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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

If I'm understanding you correctly....that only applies when the pistols are initially staged on the table...

I agree.  However, we have a rule that defines a gun laying on a table as being 'in hand' in some situations and another rule defining a gun that is being held by the shooter, but is in contact with the prop, as NOT being in hand in other situations.  I think to someone who isn't an instructor that could be a tad confusing.   On top of that, the rule about the gun on the table being in hand isn't in the rule book anywhere.

 

We also have people taking their guns out of their guncarts and walking to the LT, all the while trying not to break the 170.  We have shooters leaving the line and going to the ULT, trying not to break the 170 because the rule book says the 170 is ALWAYS in effect.  So by golly from the time they get out of their cars until they get back into them, they're trying to find which direction downrange is.

 

I really don't care who makes the rules, TGs, ROC, Misty, Santa Claus, doesn't matter to me.  But, this rules voted on by TGs, then clarification by the ROC does not lend itself to internal consistency.  

 

There should not be any rules that exist outside the rules books.  There should be zero clarifications that have to be looked up.  Once the rulebook is published for a new year that should be it, no changes or clarifications allowed until next year. 

 

When a new rule is proposed, or an old rule is potentially eliminated someone should sit down with the rule book and find every part that is impacted by the change and make sure consistency is maintained. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

However, we have a rule that defines a gun laying on a table as being 'in hand' in some situations and another rule defining a gun that is being held by the shooter, but is in contact with the prop, as NOT being in hand in other situations.  I think to someone who isn't an instructor that could be a tad confusing.   On top of that, the rule about the gun on the table being in hand isn't in the rule book anywhere.

 

Just so everyone has context on what we are talking about:

 

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

 

To @Captain Bill Burts point, as some others have previously commented, one thing that could clear up some of the confusion is the inclusion of a word in the definition, as that is how we have been told to interpret it:

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was initially staged.

 

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I would go further and say why are we twisting ourselves into a knot to call a revolver on a table 'in hand'?  

 

Did it start out where it belonged?  If not we have a penalty for that.  Did it end up where it belonged at the end of the shooting string? If not we already have a penalty for that too.  

 

Here's another one.  Revolvers staged on a table must be 'returned to leather' unless the stage instructions say otherwise.  Why?  They didn't start the stage in the holsters, so how does saying they have to be returned to them make sense?

 

When I asked that question I was told they were carried to the line in their holsters.  

 

I don't have the experience of many here, but it seems to me we get these strange results because we add or change rules by majority vote.

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9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Revolvers staged on a table must be 'returned to leather' unless the stage instructions say otherwise.  Why?  They didn't start the stage in the holsters, so how does saying they have to be returned to them make sense?

...

When I asked that question I was told they were carried to the line in their holsters.  

 

So, another suggestion for a small change for clarity may be:

 

Quote

Revolvers are returned to leather (re- must be holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

 

 

 

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Personally I think when a term is defined by "us" it should make the most common sense so a brand new shooter would understand it. Ask anybody on the street to define the term "Revolver in hand". The lowest IQ wal-mart redneck in the country as well as the highest paid professor will both say, "duh, that's when you're holding it IN YOUR HAND".

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14 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Hmmm besides everything?

Ok, maybe not everything, but...

 

There needs to be a concentrated effort to properly rewrite and codify the rulebook.

Including referencing within the rulebook any required clarifications that may be too lengthy for a handbook.  These clarifications need to be provided as a companion booklet to EVERY member in printed form (or at minimum electronically) once yearly.

 

The category matrix needs attention and steps taken to rein in the never ending shooter segregation category expansion.

 

The communication channels that used to flow SASS - TG - clubs/ shooters need to be re-examined to better reflect the age we live in and access to immediate information.

 

Issues and changes should be created thru open communication (and feedback) with the shooters instead of being announced unilaterally.

 

Equipment rules should be adapted to a standard that is accepting of "if a reasonable person would have done this in the era - it is acceptable" barring, of course illegal or unsafe modifications (pistol grip 87's or Bridgeport devices come to mind)

 

I have others...

But that will do for now.

 

 


Equipment rules should be adapted to a standard that is accepting of "if a reasonable person would have done this in the era - it is acceptable" barring, of course illegal or unsafe modifications

 

I always thought a “Newly O’Brian” standard out to be in place. If Newly could have done it to Matt Dillion’s guns it ought to be ok! 

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Personally I think when a term is defined by "us" it should make the most common sense so a brand new shooter would understand it. Ask anybody on the street to define the term "Revolver in hand". The lowest IQ wal-mart redneck in the country as well as the highest paid professor will both say, "duh, that's when you're holding it IN YOUR HAND".

 

Before you continue down that path, I would ask you to consider this: following your "it should make the most common sense so a brand new shooter would understand it" definition, what is a "dropped firearm"?

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13 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Before you continue down that path, I would ask you to consider this: following your "it should make the most common sense so a brand new shooter would understand it" definition, what is a "dropped firearm"?

Common sense speaking it would be when a firearm leaves your person without you controlling where it goes. 

If it leaves your person with you controlling it, it has not been dropped. It has been thrown, slung, slid, etc.

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Common sense speaking it would be when a firearm leaves your person without you controlling where it goes. 

If it leaves your person with you controlling it, it has not been dropped. It has been thrown, slung, slid, etc.

Restaged would fall under the umbrella "etc" in the above comment.

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16 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Common sense speaking it would be when a firearm leaves your person without you controlling where it goes. 

If it leaves your person with you controlling it, it has not been dropped. It has been thrown, slung, slid, etc.

 

Asking the question, "what is a dropped firearm," wouldn't "the lowest IQ wal-mart redneck in the country as well as the highest paid professor" all simply say, "duh, that's when you've dropped it!"?

 

Dictionary speaking, dropped is defined as "having fallen or been allowed to fall vertically" or "made low or lower than is usual."

 

As you point out with the simple question of what is dropped... some simple terms we use have a very complex definition. And, some times, that definition has words beyond the simplest dictionary definition that people would expect.  

 

 

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Thats why terms need to reference the actual issue - not a component of the issue.

 

A firearm is "dropped" the moment it leaves the shooters hand and control.

We drop them on tables - drop them in our holsters - drop them and (sometimes) catch them before they hit the ground.

 

So the penalty is not actually for the drop - the current penalty is for the firearm being out of control AND coming to a rest in a place other than intended.

 

THEN we determine the severity of the penalty by how the firearm was positioned (both while out of control and in its final resting place) and the loaded/ unloaded condition of the firearm.

 

Writing rules is easy - writing rules using the proper terms needed to explain the rules intent (and scope) is hard.

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33 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Asking the question, "what is a dropped firearm," wouldn't "the lowest IQ wal-mart redneck in the country as well as the highest paid professor" all simply say, "duh, that's when you've dropped it!"?

I dont think they would, no. Drop, in the phrase "dropped firearm" implies loss of control. Whereas drop, in the phrase "drop the level of the table" implies to lower. Drop in the phrase, "he dropped a point" implies he went a point down or lost a point. Personally I think it's not defining a term when someone uses the term that is to be defined to do so. That's akin to defining start as "that's when something starts".

33 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Dictionary speaking, dropped is defined as "having fallen or been allowed to fall vertically" or "made low or lower than is usual."

The definition of "dropped gun" by the national range officers institute is a pretty good one. It's defined as "when someone loses control of their firearm." Note that it doesn't say it has to land anywhere. It means when either hand loses control of the firearm regardless if it's tossed in the air and caught without breaking the 170 or if it's pinned between the shooters body and arm or prop/stage table or something else.

33 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

As you point out with the simple question of what is dropped... some simple terms we use have a very complex definition. And, some times, that definition has words beyond the simplest dictionary definition that people would expect.  

 

 

I don't think it's really apples to apples comparing our definition of dropped gun vs our definition of revolver in hand. One can be reasoned out without even looking in the SHB, one cannot.

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Y'all overly complicating this "in hand" issue.  Yes, it sez "in hand", but... if you think of it as out of holster... it becomes a whole lot clearer.  When the revolvers are initially staged on a prop... think of the prop as the "holster".   Damn it folks, use some uncommon good sense.  Just like a good cop, enforce the "spirit of the law", not necessarily the letter of the law. 

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2 minutes ago, Griff said:

Y'all overly complicating this "in hand" issue.  Yes, it sez "in hand", but... if you think of it as out of holster... it becomes a whole lot clearer.  When the revolvers are initially staged on a prop... think of the prop as the "holster".   Damn it folks, use some uncommon good sense.  Just like a good cop, enforce the "spirit of the law", not necessarily the letter of the law. 

I'd have to ask why we have to define the term. It's just confusing.

19 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Hey @Tennessee williams

 

What if we just change the name from "revolvers in hand" to "revolvers in play"?

 

Would that help the word problem?

 

I'd say just delete it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

when someone loses control of their firearm

So, following the rest of the rules and instances when we talk about dropped firearms, in our case, if you were to let go of a firearm two feet off the table, you've lost control of it, regardless of where it landed or where you intended it for land.

 

And, we don't need to belabor this point anymore, because the rule or the definitions isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

However, even this little discussion between a couple people illustrates the problems that can arise when several hundred people are trying to hash out a rule change. It also illustrates why you may have several different understandings of what was voted on even though they're all reading from the same hymnal.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Would you also allow anyone to have as many loaded revolvers as they want to have out of the holster at any time as they wanted?

See, that's the beauty of it. We don't have to define what in hand means in order for a shooting style to only allow for 1 firearm out of the holster or off of a prop where initially staged.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

See, that's the beauty of it. We don't have to define what in hand means in order for a shooting style to only allow for 1 firearm out of the holster or off of a prop where initially staged.

 

How much out of the holster or, how much off the prop?

 

Part of the reasons why these definitions get so long is to answer all these questions.

 

But to your point, if we remove the term "Revolver in Hand" and, anywhere the term "revolver in hand" is used in the SHB, replace that term with "revolver in a condition where the muzzle of the revolver has cleared the mouth of the holster, or the revolver is no longer in contact with the prop where it was initially staged," these rules will get little long-winded.

 

Or, to @Creeker, SASS #43022 point, just redone to better identify the objective.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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16 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

How much out of the holster or, how much off the prop?

 

Part of the reasons why these definitions get so long is to answer all these questions.

I haven't wanted to but I'm going to say it. At some point we need to stop being a babysitter, or trying to be the "nice guy". This is why the book is so large. If the rules stand for themselves, let them stand. If they don't, then take them out or replace them. Poor PWB and yourself get bombarded because of it. When someone asks how far out is out of the holster, ask them if they could see the whole pistol or not. Don't write another definition or rule. It's either holstered or its not. When they ask how far off the prop, the answer is its either touching or its not. No need for another rule.

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Rules require review on a regular basis.

 

The rules need to exist for a VALID reason.

And within our game that reason should fall under either safety, consistency of competition or atmosphere.

 

And be explained/ terms defined in that manner:

 

Term: Holstered (in holster, etc)

Prior to beep - Meaning a pistol properly and completely inserted to the maximum depth of the retaining holster.

After beep - meaning any pistol with at least 1/3 of barrel length remaining within leather.

Rule exists for: Safety - Competition

 

Term:  Footwear

Meaning foot coverings or lack thereof.

All footwear must appear representative of the actual era/ or from movies - television.  No modern footwear i.e. athletic shoes, tactical wear etc. is allowed.

Representative appearing footwear MAY (excepting specifically excluded categories) have modern materials/ traction enhancing soles.  Barefeet are always allowed at shooters discretion.

Rules exists for: Atmosphere - Competition

 

Yes, this means all terms and rules would require examination, review and definition.  And probably end up with a larger rulebook and addendums than we have now.

But the rules would have accurate wording and would be in a single unit.

 

And seemingly conflicting rules and guidance could be fixed.

And rules that have outlived their need could be culled (adjustable sight restrictions, for example).

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

How much out of the holster or, how much off the prop?

 

Part of the reasons why these definitions get so long is to answer all these questions.

 

But to your point, if we remove the term "Revolver in Hand" and, anywhere the term "revolver in hand" is used in the SHB, replace that term with "revolver in a condition where the muzzle of the revolver has cleared the mouth of the holster, or the revolver is no longer in contact with the prop where it was initially staged," these rules will get little long-winded.

 

Or, to @Creeker, SASS #43022 point, just redone to better identify the objective.

 

I hereby nominate Branchwater Jack to rewrite the Shooter's Handbook with all the pay and benefits the position is thereby entitled to.  While your at it, write another amazing SouthEast Regional Match!  :D  I'm figuring my knee replacement ought to be healed up nice by then.

 

(last year, everywhere you looked there'd be Branchwater Jack, doing something, fixing something, making sure everything was perfect!  I wish I had a picture of him running across the field with a sledgehammer!  The man was a whirlwind.)

 

IMG_20211022_074721770.thumb.jpg.94d853c7f8f9ac3240c94f07a7c9819f.jpg

IMG_20211022_074830787.jpg

Edited by McCandless
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9 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

I hereby nominate Branchwater Jack to rewrite the Shooter's Handbook with all the pay and benefits the position is thereby entitled to.  While your at it, write another amazing SouthEast Regional Match!  :D  I'm figuring my knee replacement ought to be healed up nice by then.

 

(last year, everywhere you looked there'd be Branchwater Jack, doing something, fixing something, making sure everything was perfect!  I wish I had a picture of him running across the field with a sledgehammer!  The man was a whirlwind.)

 

IMG_20211022_074721770.thumb.jpg.94d853c7f8f9ac3240c94f07a7c9819f.jpg

IMG_20211022_074830787.jpg

You don't know it but he cheated. I personally seen him hiring folks what looked like him to do most of the work.:ph34r:

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I bet you might even find a picture of somebody that looks like me cleaning the bathrooms that morning, too.

 

I remember the story of an old farmer who was going out to look at a snowmobile. He was contemplating buying his first one.  He was telling the story to his good friend, who really didn't think it was a good idea.

 

The friend asked him, "Man, you got a house, you got a wife, you got cows, you got chickens. What the heck do you need a snowmobile for? Don't you got enough troubles already?"

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