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duelist vs double duelist recommendations?


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2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

  When the hands and fingers are working there is only about a half-second difference between passing the gun and double duelist.  A half-second times 12 stages is six seconds.  

Your mileage vary on this I'm thinking.

For ME, it would add:

*.25-.50+ waiting to reholster the right pistol before I could pass the left hand pistol to the right hand

*.25+actually passing over the pistol

*.25+added time to fatigued right hand for 10rounds straight instead of the fresh off hand.

*.25+passing the pistol back to the off hand.

*1.0+ on the lost transition if there's a long gun within arms reach or just in grabbing shells.

 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Your mileage vary on this I'm thinking.

For ME, it would add:

*.25-.50+ waiting to reholster the right pistol before I could pass the left hand pistol to the right hand

*.25+actually passing over the pistol

*.25+added time to fatigued right hand for 10rounds straight instead of the fresh off hand.

*.25+passing the pistol back to the off hand.

*1.0+ on the lost transition if there's a long gun within arms reach or just in grabbing shells.

 

TW,

I agree with your thoughts here and suggest that your 4th point (which can blend into the 5th point as well) might be one of the more valuable reason to be DD.\

As someone mentioned earlier, Doc R P. is the exception of perhaps all the "transfer" duelist I have seen, an awesome duelist.

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51 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

TW,

I agree with your thoughts here and suggest that your 4th point (which can blend into the 5th point as well) might be one of the more valuable reason to be DD.\

As someone mentioned earlier, Doc R P. is the exception of perhaps all the "transfer" duelist I have seen, an awesome duelist.

Hey Billy! Yes sir, I agree Doc is a heck of a duelist. We talked after the banquet for the SE regional for a minute. We've shot together a few times but when we did, he shot traditional and I didn't get to see his transitions. He went duelist for the regional but we weren't on the same posse. Amaduelist is another fun single duelist to watch.

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10 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hey Billy! Yes sir, I agree Doc is a heck of a duelist. We talked after the banquet for the SE regional for a minute. We've shot together a few times but when we did, he shot traditional and I didn't get to see his transitions. He went duelist for the regional but we weren't on the same posse. Amaduelist is another fun single duelist to watch.

Did not realize Am was SD.  He certainly is another good duelist for sure.  Shot same match with him many times but never same posse.

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On 10/24/2021 at 3:41 PM, Tennessee williams said:

Your mileage vary on this I'm thinking.

For ME, it would add:

*.25-.50+ waiting to reholster the right pistol before I could pass the left hand pistol to the right hand

*.25+actually passing over the pistol

*.25+added time to fatigued right hand for 10rounds straight instead of the fresh off hand.

*.25+passing the pistol back to the off hand.

*1.0+ on the lost transition if there's a long gun within arms reach or just in grabbing shells.

 

Start with the left pistol - solves #1 -

#3 Never felt "fatigued" shooting 10 rounds or 100 rounds from a SAA  -   I tend to speed up a bit after some rounds as I get smoother,

I lost Bordertown by 20 seconds to Smokin Iron and Hawkeye.  That was two rifle reloads, a shotgun makeup and really rather poor loading of the shotgun since I've not put a round down range in a year and a half.  (about 3 days of 15 minute) dry fire practice on the shotgun didn't cut it   I think Larsen's .5 sec is pretty accurate.  If you look at the vid below, you can see where the rifle wasn't as smooth as I'd like and the shotgun reload was poor. That was the majority of the 3 1/2 seconds I lost to Smokin and Hawk, Larsen was a bit slower on this stage than me.

 

Edited by Joe LaFives #5481
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1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

 

Nice video. My scenario was pistols before a long gun

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Start with the left pistol - solves #1 -

Then it would be just waiting to holster the left pistol instead of waiting to holster the right pistol. Notice you are holding the left one while you shoot the right one.

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

#3 Never felt "fatigued" shooting 10 rounds or 100 rounds from a SAA  -   I tend to speed up a bit after some rounds as I get smoother,

   For me it doesn't matter which hand I use it starts to slow down the more shots I do. If you're doing 100 dry fires in one string with a single action without slowing down, you're 2 times the man I am. I notice a pretty big difference at about 20 in a row with no live rounds.

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I lost Bordertown by 20 seconds to Smokin Iron and Hawkeye.  That was two rifle reloads, a shotgun makeup and really rather poor loading of the shotgun since I've not put a round down range in a year and a half.  (about 3 days of 15 minute) dry fire practice on the shotgun didn't cut it  

I'm slow with rifle reloads too. Randy St Eagle is one of the fastest Ive seen. Especially if it's jacked out early in the string and he knows it's coming.

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

 

I think Larsen's .5 sec is pretty accurate.  If you look at the vid below, you can see where the rifle wasn't as smooth as I'd like and the shotgun reload was poor. That was the majority of the 3 1/2 seconds I lost to Smokin and Hawk, Larsen was a bit slower on this stage than me.

I've still got to disagree. Also, can't really compare styles going by 2 different shooters. Their rifles could be poorer than your run or had a sg makeup or brain fart. To truly compare, YOU would need to shoot a stage both styles and compare true/good runs. I shoot a stage double duelist faster than I do traditional(atleast the last time I compared) and it sure ain't because my pistol strings are faster shooting one handed. It's all in the transition and swapping does limit that. How much could be up for debate.

1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

 

Nice video. Thanks for sharing it. I don't really know how to put one on here.

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38 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Nice video. My scenario was pistols before a long gun

Then it would be just waiting to holster the left pistol instead of waiting to holster the right pistol. Notice you are holding the left one while you shoot the right one.

   For me it doesn't matter which hand I use it starts to slow down the more shots I do. If you're doing 100 dry fires in one string with a single action without slowing down, you're 2 times the man I am. I notice a pretty big difference at about 20 in a row with no live rounds.

I'm slow with rifle reloads too. Randy St Eagle is one of the fastest Ive seen. Especially if it's jacked out early in the string and he knows it's coming.

I've still got to disagree. Also, can't really compare styles going by 2 different shooters. Their rifles could be poorer than your run or had a sg makeup or brain fart. To truly compare, YOU would need to shoot a stage both styles and compare true/good runs. I shoot a stage double duelist faster than I do traditional(atleast the last time I compared) and it sure ain't because my pistol strings are faster shooting one handed. It's all in the transition and swapping does limit that. How much could be up for debate.

Nice video. Thanks for sharing it. I don't really know how to put one on here.

I chose this stage because I had the video for it.  I don't wait to holster one or the other because I do both at the same time.  I also chose many times to shoot the stage with the pistols last.  For two reasons.  One because starting with the shotgun if possible allows  me to restart if I don't get the load right (which happens more often these days since I'm only shooting 2-3 matches a year).  Second - shucking the shells takes me less time then re-holstering.   If you were to look at the scores from Bordertown for the senior duelists - you'd get an idea of just what is lost.  Look at stage 9 for example.  That was a 2 shot shotgun stage.  Transitions have always been a duelist's strong point.  Since typically I need to move between each firearm - going to the rifle from  pistol isn't difficult as I re-holster while moving.  The only type of stage that wouldn't allow this would be a "stand and deliver" and often those stages allow you to chose which firearm to start with so again very rarely do I have a situation transition wise.  If you check my youtube channel there is a vid from EOT 2015 which has pistol, rifle, shotgun.   It also shows how my second pistol is faster than my first as I've warmed up a bit.    The bottom line for me is that double duelist should always be quicker than duelist but only if you've put in the time.  I spent about two years trying DD and found that I missed quite a bit more with the left hand and so said heck with it.  I expect to give away 6 seconds a match to a DD all things being equal.  But it's the shotgun that will always be the principle difference.   I know that if I work on that gun that I can gain the most time

Edited by Joe LaFives #5481
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9 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I think we got off track on what my original reply was. I noted in my times it would add for ME when pistols are shot within arms reach of the next long gun.

9 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I chose this stage because I had the video for it.  I don't wait to holster one or the other because I do both at the same time. 

This would add to my travel time to the next shooting location. Some it may not, but for me trying to poke two in the holsters it does. 

9 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

If you were to look at the scores from Bordertown for the senior duelists - you'd get an idea of just what is lost.  Look at stage 9 for example.  That was a 2 shot shotgun stage. 

I'll check it out. This would of course mean everybody had the same problems if any on the stage and were equal in other aspects.

9 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

 

 

I figured out how to put one on here. This is a practice run with pistols last. Theres not much that helps a duelist on a stage where all the guns are shot from different locations. It limits transitions. I'll look for one with 2kds

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Just to clarify when I was talking .5 seconds that is for the pistols.  Rifle transitions and all the other stuff is different for every scenario and needs to be part of the planning for that stage.  The question is about pistol speed.  My number was not picked out of thin air.  To find out if you (the generic you meaning anyone) are faster with double duelist or transitioning the gun do a few drills.  First set up a decent size target at five or six yards.  Shooting involves speed and actually hitting a target so shooting in the dirt trying to establish a benchmark is useless.  Pick a shooting style.  Load the pistols with five rounds each and then ON THE CLOCK draw and fire one round and then draw and fire one round with the other hand.  Do this at least ten times and get an average time.  If you miss do not count that run.  Do the same thing and try the other style.  When done that gives the maximum theoretical difference between double duelist and transitioning from side to side.  Most people are not 100% ambidextrious and as I originally noted if you are marginally slower with one hand or marginally less accurate the theoretical difference will shrink.  Now draw and fire five rounds from each pistol for at least five runs and then do it again with the other shooting style.  Then compare the average time for double duelist and transitioning and that will be a more realistic time difference between the two.  For me the weak hand regardless of how much I exercise that hand is always a tad slower than my strong hand.  So, for example, there are three pistol targets to be shot 2,3 and 5.  (That was a Bordertown scenario.)  Moving from target to target narrows the time loss with my weak hand so I shot that stage 2,3 with my weak hand and did the 5 round dump with my strong hand.  The first two days at Bordertown my hands were pretty good.  On the third day I woke up with my back out so I could not stand straight and my weak hand thumb was getting crunchy.  I continued to shoot double duelist and had a miss on the next to the last stage.  On those last four stages had I switched to transitioning and shot .5 slower per stage I would have been better off.

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35 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Just to clarify when I was talking .5 seconds that is for the pistols.  Rifle transitions and all the other stuff is different for every scenario and needs to be part of the planning for that stage.  The question is about pistol speed.  My number was not picked out of thin air.  To find out if you (the generic you meaning anyone) are faster with double duelist or transitioning the gun do a few drills.  First set up a decent size target at five or six yards.  Shooting involves speed and actually hitting a target so shooting in the dirt trying to establish a benchmark is useless.  Pick a shooting style.  Load the pistols with five rounds each and then ON THE CLOCK draw and fire one round and then draw and fire one round with the other hand.  Do this at least ten times and get an average time.  If you miss do not count that run.  Do the same thing and try the other style.  When done that gives the maximum theoretical difference between double duelist and transitioning from side to side.  Most people are not 100% ambidextrious and as I originally noted if you are marginally slower with one hand or marginally less accurate the theoretical difference will shrink.  Now draw and fire five rounds from each pistol for at least five runs and then do it again with the other shooting style.  Then compare the average time for double duelist and transitioning and that will be a more realistic time difference between the two.  For me the weak hand regardless of how much I exercise that hand is always a tad slower than my strong hand.  So, for example, there are three pistol targets to be shot 2,3 and 5.  (That was a Bordertown scenario.)  Moving from target to target narrows the time loss with my weak hand so I shot that stage 2,3 with my weak hand and did the 5 round dump with my strong hand.  The first two days at Bordertown my hands were pretty good.  On the third day I woke up with my back out so I could not stand straight and my weak hand thumb was getting crunchy.  I continued to shoot double duelist and had a miss on the next to the last stage.  On those last four stages had I switched to transitioning and shot .5 slower per stage I would have been better off.

  I think you and I were on the same page pretty much. I was saying on your OP it would add more than .5 for ME to pass the pistol and that it would add time for me elsewhere in the stage depending on the set up. Joe was saying .5 for the whole stage. 

  Sometimes if I'm shooting rifle targets from pistol location I'll shoot strong side both guns. 

  Congratulations again on your bordertown win!

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Here is one example of keeping the off hand doing something while shooting the other.

That is the one thing a DD can do the single duelist can not. That is the one advantage that DD have.

And to me is part of the fun of it is adding a few transitions in that you can not do the other way.

 

 

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It's not just about pistol to pistol. It is also pistol to long gun.

But as pointed out. It takes more work to be able to shoot with the weak hand.

 

It's also about fun.

To me. The added transition options is a big part of the fun of shooting DD. 

 

I am more accurate with my strong hand (right). But faster with my left (weak hand)

Now I have been known on stages that have smaller and farter than normal targets

to just use my right hand. So I will give up and extra second to save a possible miss. But 

don't do that very often. It's just not as much fun. 

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