WTC Pistols out

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

51 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

I’ve heard the same thing said about shooting gunfighter as well as just shooting cas. To each their own

I never said that you should t do it. Have fun. 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Just as a sideline question....And assuming there would be a stage that written .....Such as split pistol

May a Gunfighter begin a sequence in Double Duelist style shoot 3 from one pistol, holster, shoot 2 from the other pistol, holster and continue the stage. Upon arriving at the second 5 pistol string, draw both pistols and shoot Gunfighter style?

Or 

Could a B Western shooter begin in Gunfighter style, holster both and then when engaging the last 5 pistol shots shoot the pistols two handed.

OR

Must the stage be shot in only one style of shooting?

 

(Just for the record... The handbook says that "Gunfighters" may not holster with the intent to re-engage. It does not say "Gunfighter Style").

Maybe the word style should be added in that spot?

 

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Part of my confusion is that we allow a shooter to shoot one pistol, stage it, then draw the other, shoot it and then reholster both.  So it used to be legal to stage the gun while you redrew the one with the extra bullet.  The shooter would not have two loaded guns in hand.  So the current rules would allow that only for GF and BW - since they could stage but could not reholster, is that correct?

 

But the others must either shoot the second one dry, then redraw the first - Or reholster the second one, draw the first again, and then continue.  (Of course this assumes that the first was holstered.)

This is correct

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Just as a sideline question....And assuming there would be a stage that written .....Such as split pistol

May a Gunfighter begin a sequence in Double Duelist style shoot 3 from one pistol, holster, shoot 2 from the other pistol, holster and continue the stage. Upon arriving at the second 5 pistol string, draw both pistols and shoot Gunfighter style?

Or 

Could a B Western shooter begin in Gunfighter style, holster both and then when engaging the last 5 pistol shots shoot the pistols two handed.

OR

Must the stage be shot in only one style of shooting?

 

Just my personal opinion here, but the gunfighter category has a rule against reholstering with the intent to engage again, so I would say no, they could not do that. 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Just now, Smokestack said:

Just my personal opinion here, but the gunfighter category has a rule against reholstering with the intent to engage again, so I would say no, they could not do that. 

Not when shooting Double Duelist style.

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Not when shooting Double Duelist style.

 

Show me that in the book. The rule is under rules for the category. The rule does not say only when shooting two guns at once. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Part of my confusion is that we allow a shooter to shoot one pistol, stage it, then draw the other, shoot it and then reholster both.  So it used to be legal to stage the gun while you redrew the one with the extra bullet. 

The shooter would not have two loaded guns in hand.  So the current rules would allow that only for GF and BW - since they could stage but could not reholster, is that correct?

 

But the others must either shoot the second one dry, then redraw the first - Or reholster the second one, draw the first again, and then continue.  (Of course this assumes that the first was holstered.)

 

The first comment pertains to holstering both revolvers at the end of the shooting string (unless stage directions state otherwise).

If a non-GF stages #1 with an unfired round remaining, the draws the other, he is in violation of the "two loaded revolvers out of leather" prohibition as soon as one or the other is cocked...if he stages #2, then picks up #1 to fire the 5th round, he is in violation of that same rule.

The penalty may be "undone" before cocking either revolver while both are "out of leather" and loaded.

I don't recall exactly when the rule was codified.

 

There would be no reason for a GF-style shooter to stage a revolver in the middle of a 10-shot string, other than a malfunction or squib situation.

Even a temporary "stoppage" of one revolver is handled by shooting the other revolver "dry", then remedying the problem.

 

The last statement is correct for non-GF shooters to avoid the penalty for violating the "two loaded revolvers..." rule.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

52 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Just as a sideline question....And assuming there would be a stage that written .....Such as split pistol

May a Gunfighter begin a sequence in Double Duelist style shoot 3 from one pistol, holster, shoot 2 from the other pistol, holster and continue the stage. Upon arriving at the second 5 pistol string, draw both pistols and shoot Gunfighter style?

Or 

Could a B Western shooter begin in Gunfighter style, holster both and then when engaging the last 5 pistol shots shoot the pistols two handed.

OR

Must the stage be shot in only one style of shooting?

 

(Just for the record... The handbook says that "Gunfighters" may not holster with the intent to re-engage. It does not say "Gunfighter Style").

Maybe the word style should be added in that spot?

 

 

 

1) NO...prohibited under the specific category regulations.

2) YES... maybe ...   or NO (see quoted rules below)...

(taking this to the ROC for further clarification, although it has been ruled that a BW shooter may switch shooting styles "at will" during stage engagement, IIRC)

3) NO (e.g. even a "two-handed" shooter may shoot Duelist-style at any time during a stage; but the rules disallow non-GF/BW shooters from utilizing GF-style)

 

Quote

Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style, at the shooters discretion.

B-Western regs SHB p.8

 

Quote

GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence.  (See Gunfighter Rules).

SHB p.14

 

 

[Kananaskis Kid, SASS #62402]

Maybe we should ensure that all rules in all handbooks are worded the same.  If we follow the rules as written in the November 2017 Shooters Handbook, p. 5 under Duelist Rules it says, "At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."  On p. 6 of the SHB, under Gunfighter Rules, it states, "Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers "in hand" at the same time."  However in the January 2016 ROII Handbook, p. 10, in the Gunfighter Category section, it states, "The Gunfighter and B-Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time."  Now to my way of thinking, "in hand" and "out of leather" do not mean the same thing.  The most recent rules, newly revised, say "in hand".  Which are we supposed to follow?  Many CAS competitors have both ROI  and ROII training, but some TOs have only taken the ROI course and so, will go by the rules in the SHB.  No wonder people get confused when they get a WTC like this one

 

 

[Cherokee sgt.]

Sometimes  maybe it's better just not to say anything as TO or spotter. 

if shooter is back to leather before they can count to 5 . 

what if in all this confusion  a couple spotters said 4 and then improperly 

coaches shooter ! 

Reshoot?  / P ?/ no P?/   TO has to make call ? /Go to range master for

call ?/  (  It's only a miss )now it's a debate on rules & maybe a train wreck 

for shooter ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

15 hours ago, Kananaskis Kid, SASS #62402 said:

Maybe we should ensure that all rules in all handbooks are worded the same.  If we follow the rules as written in the November 2017 Shooters Handbook, p. 5 under Duelist Rules it says, "At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."  On p. 6 of the SHB, under Gunfighter Rules, it states, "Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers "in hand" at the same time."  However in the January 2016 ROII Handbook, p. 10, in the Gunfighter Category section, it states, "The Gunfighter and B-Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time."  Now to my way of thinking, "in hand" and "out of leather" do not mean the same thing.  The most recent rules, newly revised, say "in hand".  Which are we supposed to follow?  Many CAS competitors have both ROI  and ROII training, but some TOs have only taken the ROI course and so, will go by the rules in the SHB.  No wonder people get confused when they get a WTC like this one

 

 

Yup, we live and learn.  The single hand book is a great step.  The folks that write the rules have continued to work to improve things as we learn.

 

I am very thankful for that!

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

To be sure I have this correct per LW's OP.  shooter would get the penalty because he/she did not return loaded #2 to where it came from (holster) when #1 was drawn to fire unfired round.  With loaded #2 on table, when #1 was cocked to fire 5th round, that shooter was OOC, assuming not a GF, with two loaded guns out at same time.  What I  see confirmed here for future reference is that staging to table rather than back to holster with #2  is considered OUT in the OP.  Makes good sense to me.