hambone Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I just scored a matched pair of 51 navies with 38 conversion cylinders. Thanks Doc. I want to shoot these with black so I need some of you pards out there to PM me some load data.I have 158 gr. cast bullets and starline brass. Do I need some kind of lube on the bullets? For powder I have 777 in 3F and 2F and also some Hodgens P. Sorry thats what is available in my area. Thanks for any help ahead of time. Hambone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 You don't need BP lube if you are shooting Triple 7. Regular smokeless lube is okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Fill the case to within 1/4 inch of the top, seat the bullet, crimp heavy. Enjoy. (SASS requires 15 grains of powder minimum in blackpowder categories, which is about 1 cc volume. 777 does not like compression, so just eliminate air space between the powder and the bottom of the bullet. 15 grains/1cc in the .38 Special case is gonna work just fine.) Moderators: I hope reciting the rules on blackpowder loads is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Just load them up. Leave some space for the base of the bullet and you're good to go. Smoke 'em up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 FFFg loaded to have some pressure on the powder when the bullet is seated. Standard primers. Heavy crimp. The 158-grain bullets will work, but the bore is slightly large for the .358 diameter bullet. I would try a soft and lighter bullet like a Hornaday swaged 140 grain that will still get good combustion but fill the rifling. I shoot 1851 Navy Civilians .44 caliber with .45 Colt cylinders, .45 Cowboy Special brass and 180-185 grain SWC bullets over APP FFFg or FFg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Do not use 3F 777 in metallic cartridges of any caliber. 2F is great. Mild to no compression (with base of bullet touching touching powder). Smokeless bullets ok. Great BP sub powder -- about 15% stouter than BP, but you won't notice the difference in a .38. EASY clean up with hot water. Don't know what Hodgens P is. Do you mean Pyrodex? No experience with it personally, but I think you need BP lube bullets. If you haven't bought any, I'd pass on it in favor of 777. When/if you get around to shooting actual BP, you'll need bullets with BP-compatible lube. It's softer than smokeless lube and keeps fouling down. Smokeless lube is harder which leads to crusty guns and a lot of extra maintenance during a match. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Hambone, glad you like the pistols. American Pioneer Powder works great, you don't need special lubed bullets or heavy loads, which I wouldn't shoot in those open tops. You can get the powder at Gander Mountain in Sherwood, they always have a good supply. Get the black bottle, it's the newer version than the white bottle. Last time I was there they had both kinds. Fill the case to the base of the bullet when seated. Lots of smoke and cleanup is easy. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriscoCounty Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Psst. (over here). You should think about heeled bullets. Really. They're more work. You need special molds and shell holder to do it right. BUT, it does amp up the cool factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rillito Red Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 A full load of 2f Triple 7 is a hot load and will kick like a 357 magnum. Check your barrel after shooting. It can bypass and leave a nice strip of lead in the barrel. Do not use 3f in anything larger than a 38 short Colt or a 32. Way too hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 Thanks for the info all. Doc I run by Gander Mt. and picked up some APP in 2F but now i'm second guessing myself with the response to this thread about not using 777 3F in metallic cases. When I look at the APP info on their site it tells me to load 3F for 38 and the 2F is for shotguns and big bore rifles. Sooooo, do I need 2F or 3Fin APP? The 2F looks pretty chunky. Sorry for the confusion folks. Hambone Psssst. Over here Frisco; Tell me of these helled bullets you speak of. pros and cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Hambone, some of the guys think you are shooting 1851 Navy cap and ball pistols that have a conversion cylinder so you can shoot cartidges. What you have are Richards-Mason conversions that were designed to shoot a .357 or .358 bullet from the start. A heeled bullet would be used in a cap and ball pistol with a conversion cylinder because the bore on those is actually .372 and the heeled bullet is designed to fit the larger bore size but can still be loaded in the 38 Special case. Your guns don't need heeled bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriscoCounty Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Hoof Hearted has a whole thread dedicated to it. But basically real cap'n'ball conversions have the 'problem' that the barrel is really .375 or so and modern .38 bullets are .357 or so. Big problem. The solutions are (1) live with the inherent inaccuracy and leading problems, (2) use soft lead hollow base bullets that will bump up to seal the barrel, (3) have the barrel lined, (4) use heeled bullets just like they did way back then. Factory produced versions of cartridge conversion revolvers solve the problem by using barrels with modern dimensions (.357). With cap'n'ball pistols the chamber is the same size as the barrel groove. The bullet needs to be the same size as the cylinder chamber and so does the case. The solution was to cast a bullet with a shoulder in it. The back half was the same diameter as the inside of the case and the front half was the same size as the chamber/groove. The resulting bullet needs to be externally lubed , though. Hoof Hearted's tutorial is over on the CASCITY board: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=41633.0 His web site is http://cartridgeconversion.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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