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What's the CORRECT Call


Lone Dog, SASS #20401

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If the guy was a fast shooter then sometime you dont hear Bang ding.At Bayou Blast and was helping with a side match for fist pistols.T Bone Dooley shot 10 shots in 3.03 and I had to go look at the targets to see the hits.Clean and lucky for the shooter

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Just so you'll know. If I had been a spotter I would lobby for clean. I am merely postulating other answers and theories to show that every amswer is not always cut and dried.

My faith in your character and good name are restored... I knew that your somewhat "out-of-sync-with-the-times" penchant for "fair-play" would ultimately show thru!

 

Unlike my penchant for jumpin' to conclusions!!!!:lol:

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The OP (spotter) heard two distinct hits on the target.

What's the question here?

:blink:

 

Whoops! Whoa up a minute. I don't know what I heard. Too stunned by the no-bad-consequences squib followed by a distinct hit with trigger pull 2. My use of the non-word dading now proves unfortunate. I know I heard a hit and the target shimmied. I cannot testify that the hit was any louder than normal or the shimmying any more pronounced than usual. Using "da-ding" instead of just plain ole ding or clang was I guess my subconscious way of attempting to influence the jury to my thinking that no bullet came out of barrel with first target engagement and (in my mind and it is my firm belief) 2 exited the barrel with the second engagement. Sorry, your honor.

 

SO, the question is: one miss OR clean?

 

I vote clean and I hope that's what he got if for no other reason than it was his extra lucky day. No harm nowhere even to the Blackhawk.

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Stage instructions are P1,P1,P2,P3,P3 with first pistol. Shooter pulls Blackhawk, cocks, pulls trigger ... pfffft ...

it's a SQUIB!!! Everybody realizes primer only detonation, no sign the bullet has exited the barrel. Before the RO (our best and most experienced RO, by the way) can say or do anything, shooter cocks and fires again. Apparently second bullet pushes first on out the barrel and both (apparently) go dading on P1. Shooter continues to march and finishes the stage without furthur incident. In the zone at the time shooter was completely unaware his first shot was a squib. What is the CORRECT call ? ? ? ...

 

...more later.

NO sign of a miss with first round. Just a pffft and nothing more. Definite ding with second shot. Impossible to tell if it was dading or just ding. All evidence indicated dading...

... unfortunately target badly needed painting, would have been interesting to see the strikes on a freshly painted target face...

This circumstance happened today and I was a spotter.

 

I am SURE of a few things:

 

1. first trigger pull resulted only in distinctive squib only noise.

2. no indication of a "dribble"-ed out primer only powered "short of the target" chunk of lead hitting the dry and dusty ground between firing point and target.

3. I know there were no blank or 2-bullet cartridges being used by the shooter because I KNOW the man and he would have no truck with either.

4. there is no doubt in my military mind that the first bullet remained stuck in the 6 and 1/2" Blackhawk barrel, probably very near the muzzle and exited when slammed into by the second bullet (with a 4 and 5/8 barrel it probably would have made it on out from primer power only and quite possibly even been a hit [seen it before]).

NO RO on the face of the planet could have possibly said or done ANYthing before the second hammer cock and trigger pull. Shooter was in the zone and did not hesitate doing the double tap.

 

Best RO we got was on the job. Not a thing he could do but be amazed with the rest of us.

At first I argued for a miss. Hammer fallee, no hittee.

 

BUT, the shooter did all that was asked of him and followed the stage instructions to the letter. Pulled the trigger twice. Two chunks of lead (I do believe) impacted the correct target. How can he not be clean???

 

Shooter was indeed fortunate that the first 2 rounds were supposed to be on P1.

 

I not sure what the ultimate decision was because the shoot went on. I believe he at first was given a miss but later was declared to be clean and the miss rescinded.

 

BUT, what is the correct call ? ? ? ...

Whoops! Whoa up a minute. I don't know what I heard. Too stunned by the no-bad-consequences squib followed by a distinct hit with trigger pull 2. My use of the non-word dading now proves unfortunate. I know I heard a hit and the target shimmied. I cannot testify that the hit was any louder than normal or the shimmying any more pronounced than usual. Using "da-ding" instead of just plain ole ding or clang was I guess my subconscious way of attempting to influence the jury to my thinking that no bullet came out of barrel with first target engagement and (in my mind and it is my firm belief) 2 exited the barrel with the second engagement. Sorry, your honor.

 

SO, the question is: one miss OR clean?

 

I vote clean and I hope that's what he got if for no other reason than it was his extra lucky day. No harm nowhere even to the Blackhawk.

 

How about providing ALL of the particulars in the OP next time?

Right now all we have is conjecture regarding the final outcome from a spotter who eventually changed his opinion.

Did the match officials make a final call on this or not?

FWIW:

There is no rule that covers such a ONE IN A MILLION circumstance.

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How about I was/am sleepy? 'Bout the best I can come up with. I work nights so I am not used to being awake past noon. The events were and are still churning in my feeble mind. I try to stay out of the scorekeeping and do totally stay out of the command decisions. Yes I changed my mind. Reserve the right to do so again. I came here for "what is the CORRECT call" help, not chastisement on my many failings.

 

Now I will grant that what happened today is a rare occurrence. Still it would be nice to KNOW how it should be called, just in case it ever does happen again.

 

Last I "heard" but cannot say for sure, the initial miss given (after much debate)the shooter was taken away and he was scored clean for the stage. Don't quote me on that tho.

 

My apologies to all for my bad communication slash explanation "skills".

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How about providing ALL of the particulars in the OP next time?

Right now all we have is conjecture regarding the final outcome from a spotter who eventually changed his opinion.

Did the match officials make a final call on this or not?

FWIW:

There is no rule that covers such a ONE IN A MILLION circumstance.

 

 

Lone Dog,

 

I hope you don't write up incident reports like you did this one! You tried to get responses that supported your belief of the "facts" instead of providing the facts and let us decide. Shame, shame. :rolleyes:

 

Now, back to the situation. Not a lot of FACTS. We don't KNOW what happened to the first bullit. It MIGHT have stopped in the barrel. It MIGHT have had just enough energy to exit the barrel and land SOMEWHERE. It MIGHT have been forced out of the barrel and struck the target. We don't KNOW that two bullits hit the same target upon the firing of the second shot. We do KNOW that the second bullit hit the appropriate target.

 

So, is it a miss, a hit or something else. I'd like to award a HIT and go on. But, that's not what I would call. I would call a MISS. Plenty of good arguements to support calling a hit. However, we should look beyond this single incident and see how we'd apply the ruling under different circumstances. What would we call if the shooting order had not been a double tap? A double hit, as you have suggested, would mean calling a Procedural in a double tap situation. That seems harsh, especially when we review the FACTS. That's why I'd call this one a MISS. Seems to be the fairest call under varying situations.

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SD, incident reports are easy compared to the way this thing went. Again, sorry if my descriptions were/are so inadequate. WE (as in you and all others not there)cannot know what happened to the first bullet. THIS child WAS sure in my own mind that bullet one STAYED in the barrel until bullet 2 knocked it on out. I cannot testify to a judicial certainty that is what happened, but that is what I sincerely believe happened. Every other witness believed the same. Stuck bullet knocked into target by next bullet. How can you say I was trying to get people to agree with how I think the call should be when I still do not know what I think it should be. I can see it both ways, one miss or clean. I initially said one miss as NO hit occurred with first hammer fall. Now, I just dunno...

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So quit not showing up or going other places there, SD.

 

With cowboy loads I believe you could probably keep stacking slugs in the barrel of a Blackhawk until the first one is hanging out the muzzle and the last one (even if requiring reloading)sticking into the forcing cone and stopping cylinder rotation without the barrel, top strap or cylinder letting go. Have heard of this happening (not at a CAS match). Kids, don't try this at home.

 

Of course, this could never happen at a CAS match as we would get even the fastest shooter shut down way before round 5 (mos likely after round 2 likewise failed to exit after a squib on round 1).

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It seems to me that it boils down to:

 

Trigger pull #1 discharges a single round and did not result in a hit.

 

Trigger pull #2 discharges a single round that did result in a hit.

 

Can a single shot from a pistol result in multiple hits?

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Pards, if this ever happens when I am shooting, just give me a miss for having a squib in the first place. My responsibility to have safe ammo, and I would have failed to do that.

 

I won't criticize those involved in the original incident for giving the shooter a clean stage, however. Benefit of the doubt in screwball situations should still go to the shooter.

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MISS

Why? Folks forget that the route the bullet takes to get to the proper target does not matter. A bullet that hits the dirt, ricochets up and hits a shotgun target and then ricochets up to hit the proper pistol target is still a hit and not a miss.

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Worst this call could be would be a miss. However I call your attention to the above, highlighted in extry BIG print. Clearly indicates TWO hits on the target.

 

With the information given I would call it clean, no P, next shooter.

 

The rules can't forsee EVERY goofy situation. Sometimes we must use a bit of common sense. If in fact the first round was a squib and the bullet was in the barrel AND it was pushed out by shot #2 (See above BOLD, BIG print) seems clear to me this is what happened. Both bullets INTENDED for target one hit same. Miss flow chart agrees and I can't see ANYWHERE how this could be warped into some sort of other weird call on either the shooter or RO.

+1....what's the point of making this any more difficult than it is? It was amazingly good fortune for the shooter. NO ONE SAW A MISS. Clean... and the RO can go clean his pants. :o

 

Hand off the timer- Next shooter.

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