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What's the CORRECT Call


Lone Dog, SASS #20401

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Stage instructions are P1,P1,P2,P3,P3 with first pistol. Shooter pulls Blackhawk, cocks, pulls trigger ... pfffft ...

it's a SQUIB!!! Everybody realizes primer only detonation, no sign the bullet has exited the barrel. Before the RO (our best and most experienced RO, by the way) can say or do anything, shooter cocks and fires again. Apparently second bullet pushes first on out the barrel and both (apparently) go dading on P1. Shooter continues to march and finishes the stage without furthur incident. In the zone at the time shooter was completely unaware his first shot was a squib. What is the CORRECT call ? ? ? ...

 

...more later.

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All other posts are moot. The correct call has been given.

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NO sign of a miss with first round. Just a pffft and nothing more. Definite ding with second shot. Impossible to tell if it was dading or just ding. All evidence indicated dading...

... unfortunately target badly needed painting, would have been interesting to see the strikes on a freshly painted target face...

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I dunno.

 

:unsure: • Revolver and rifle ammunition must be of “single projectile” design. “Multiple projectile”

bullets are illegal.

 

But then I've been called a hardass more than once. ;)

 

sieg heil

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But then I've been called a hardass more than once. ;)

sieg heil

And will again with an attitude like that, bucko!:lol:

 

The rule you refer to is about the AMMO, not some freak accident.

 

Remember that bit about...

"If you know it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a miss, it's a hit."

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Not Sure for single projectile, are you sure the first bullet was not leaving the barrel when the second was shot, a micro second for instance? :huh:

 

For me not single projectile but too very very close projectiles. :)

 

So clean as you cannot say it was a miss. :D

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And will again with an attitude like that, bucko!:lol:

 

The rule you refer to is about the AMMO, not some freak accident.

 

Remember that bit about...

"If you know it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a miss, it's a hit."

 

 

This comes back to the old arguement about loading 5 blanks. You see no evidence of a miss so you award 5 hits? By the OP words no one is sure whether one bullet or two struck the target. I'm just arguing that if in fact there were two bullets hit the target, why do we assume the other one must have been stuck in the barrel. We have no hard evidence that bullet one didn't dribble out the end and land at shooters feet. Somebodies gotta play the devils advocate, you ain't gettin' a harrumph from me.

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Not Sure for single projectile, are you sure the first bullet was not leaving the barrel when the second was shot, a micro second for instance? :huh:

 

For me not single projectile but too very very close projectiles. :)

 

So clean as you cannot say it was a miss. :D

 

This circumstance happened today and I was a spotter.

 

I am SURE of a few things:

 

1. first trigger pull resulted only in distinctive squib only noise.

2. no indication of a "dribble"-ed out primer only powered "short of the target" chunk of lead hitting the dry and dusty ground between firing point and target.

3. I know there were no blank or 2-bullet cartridges being used by the shooter because I KNOW the man and he would have no truck with either.

4. there is no doubt in my military mind that the first bullet remained stuck in the 6 and 1/2" Blackhawk barrel, probably very near the muzzle and exited when slammed into by the second bullet (with a 4 and 5/8 barrel it probably would have made it on out from primer power only and quite possibly even been a hit [seen it before]).

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This comes back to the old arguement about loading 5 blanks. You see no evidence of a miss so you award 5 hits?

Just quit yer tuggin' the reins of this cart off to the left of center, buster! Between at least two of the sensors most of us have, you would have evidence of a lack of hits... you don't ALWAYS have to have hard evidence of a miss to call a miss. WITH NO auditory or visual evidence of a hit and most reasonably intelligent people would make a determination that they'd just witnessed FIVE misses. I must admit, I'd previously considered you in that group of folks... was I wrong?:wacko:

 

And, I happen to know that I'm not...

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One post says "NO sign of a miss with first round. Just a pffft and nothing more. Definite ding with second shot.."

another post...."Did the spotters see a miss on target P1 (with either bullet), if no miss seen, then call is easy?.."

 

But NO hit was seen either. By this way of thinking I could load very light loads with no projectiles and be called clean because No Misses would be seen. Get real? There was no hit with first shot.

 

If you go by the bullet stuck in barrel theory (squib) and second cartridge pushed two bullets to target then that would be multiple projectiles going down range for one cartridge fired. Specifically addressed by the rules. Illegal

 

Then there's the first round had no bullet. Unlikely as the shooter loaded his own rounds in to his gun at the loading table. No bullet. No hit. A miss.

 

The first bullet may not have left the barrel. Timing Officer should have stopped the shooter but didn't and most likely couldn't if a fast and/or focused shooter. All the other rounds were fired and hit their targets. My call would be a miss on the first shot. There was NO Hit before the next cartridge was fired. No call on (unknown) possible multiple projectiles fired with second round.

 

Using the "I didn't see a miss, so it's a hit" doesn't work for me. I have shot at too many ranges where the background was covered in brush and no misses are seen to impact the ground. Only hits on targets could be scored.

 

 

I guess I will be placed in the Hardass group. But when I'm counting, I do not give penalties. The shooter earns them. I hold up what I believe I saw happen. If I am in the minority of the 3 counters, the score keeper will record the majority score. I do not try to change the mind of the other counters. That's not my job as a counter.

 

Cliff Hanger

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Tar and feather the RO for not being fast and loud enough to get the shooters attention.

 

NO RO on the face of the planet could have possibly said or done ANYthing before the second hammer cock and trigger pull. Shooter was in the zone and did not hesitate doing the double tap.

 

Best RO we got was on the job. Not a thing he could do but be amazed with the rest of us.

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Subdeacon Joe,

 

I'm not sure there are TO or RO fast enough to stop a fast and or focused shooter short of a cease fire.

 

I know I have made target sequence errors and the 5 time world champion, Mr. China Camp, who was timing me could do nothing but laugh when it was over as he explained what I had done to earn my "P". I thought it was funny that the best couldn't stop me from shooting the wrong target.

 

CH

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This comes back to the old arguement about loading 5 blanks. You see no evidence of a miss so you award 5 hits? By the OP words no one is sure whether one bullet or two struck the target. I'm just arguing that if in fact there were two bullets hit the target, why do we assume the other one must have been stuck in the barrel. We have no hard evidence that bullet one didn't dribble out the end and land at shooters feet. Somebodies gotta play the devils advocate, you ain't gettin' a harrumph from me.

Because benefit of doubt goes to the shooter.
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As a witness to this event, next shooter in line, the shooter was definately too fast for any TO to catch him. I do consider myself pretty good at it but the word STOP was forming on my lips when the second shot went off.

I am with Lone Dog, we just want an answer. I would have called a miss and did when my opinion was asked.

BD

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At first I argued for a miss. Hammer fallee, no hittee.

 

BUT, the shooter did all that was asked of him and followed the stage instructions to the letter. Pulled the trigger twice. Two chunks of lead (I do believe) impacted the correct target. How can he not be clean???

 

Shooter was indeed fortunate that the first 2 rounds were supposed to be on P1.

 

I not sure what the ultimate decision was because the shoot went on. I believe he at first was given a miss but later was declared to be clean and the miss rescinded.

 

BUT, what is the correct call ? ? ? ...

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I would call a miss. first shot went off nothing was hit, thus a miss. Your guessing what happened to the other round. Here is a fun thought if you don't think it was a miss. What if this had been a fast sweep shooter engages target 1 piff, shoots target 2 next before RO can catch him, do you give him a P for a double tap or a miss. :rolleyes:

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And will again with an attitude like that, bucko!:lol:

 

The rule you refer to is about the AMMO, not some freak accident.[ Remember that bit about...

"If you know it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a hit, it's a hit;

if you think it's a miss, it's a hit."

 

 

Freak accident?...hmmm that kinda wording is interesting...could there possibly be a 'safety' violation, dangerous firearm situation??...Heck i don;t know, interesting what some may say about it though....

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I would call a miss. first shot went off nothing was hit, thus a miss. Your guessing what happened to the other round. Here is a fun thought if you don't think it was a miss. What if this had been a fast sweep shooter engages target 1 piff, shoots target 2 next before RO can catch him, do you give him a P for a double tap or a miss. :rolleyes:

 

Once again - why is this so difficult?

You penalize for the end result of the shooters actions - Not their intent - not what might have happened - But for what ACTUALLY occurred.

Per the OP - the shooter placed two rounds on P1. That satisfies the stage instructions. No call.

In your example the shooter would have placed NO rounds on P1 and TWO rounds on P2 - That is a "P" for targets struck out of order.

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I would call a miss. first shot went off nothing was hit, thus a miss. Your guessing what happened to the other round. Here is a fun thought if you don't think it was a miss. What if this had been a fast sweep shooter engages target 1 piff, shoots target 2 next before RO can catch him, do you give him a P for a double tap or a miss. :rolleyes:

First shot did not happen until bullet left barrel.

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Stage instructions are P1,P1,P2,P3,P3 with first pistol. Shooter pulls Blackhawk, cocks, pulls trigger ... pfffft ...

it's a SQUIB!!! Everybody realizes primer only detonation, no sign the bullet has exited the barrel. Before the RO (our best and most experienced RO, by the way) can say or do anything, shooter cocks and fires again. Apparently second bullet pushes first on out the barrel and both (apparently) go dading on P1. Shooter continues to march and finishes the stage without furthur incident. In the zone at the time shooter was completely unaware his first shot was a squib. What is the CORRECT call ? ? ? ...

 

...more later.

 

Worst this call could be would be a miss. However I call your attention to the above, highlighted in extry BIG print. Clearly indicates TWO hits on the target.

 

With the information given I would call it clean, no P, next shooter.

 

The rules can't forsee EVERY goofy situation. Sometimes we must use a bit of common sense. If in fact the first round was a squib and the bullet was in the barrel AND it was pushed out by shot #2 (See above BOLD, BIG print) seems clear to me this is what happened. Both bullets INTENDED for target one hit same. Miss flow chart agrees and I can't see ANYWHERE how this could be warped into some sort of other weird call on either the shooter or RO.

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Just so you'll know. If I had been a spotter I would lobby for clean. I am merely postulating other answers and theories to show that every amswer is not always cut and dried.

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I understand the original example. I'm asking what makes you think both rounds hit the target. Shot 1 no hit was seen or heard as stated by the original poster. Shot 2 they heard a ding are you going to tell me even if they did piggyback out you heard 2 hits. As far as the second example I gave I was just wondered how many would actually call a P on it. I would have called a miss because I don't know that both rounds hit target 2. there would have been 1 bang 1 ding.

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Shooter was relatively fast with second shot...prove that the first shot wasn't on it's way out the barrel...slowly since it was underpowered...and then simply pushed along by the higher velocity driven second round...go ahead...prove it.

 

Have a nice day!

 

:FlagAm:

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