The old Marlin rifle jam shooting 38's in a 357

[Stonewood Kid]

So I've been told by several shooters that changing the carrier in the Marlin 1894 Cowboy chambered in 357 will eliminate the jamming problem when shooting 38's, what carrier do you get and where do you purchase it?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

You need to explain EXACTLY what you mean by "jamming problem".

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

I did not do any thing to the carrier -just reload your 38 bullets to 1.5 in

and they may feed fine

[Oklahomabound]

The easiest thing to do is to adjust the overall cartridge length of the .38 Special cartridge first. I shifted to a 158 grain bullet RNFP that I adjusted such that the overall length was 1.52 inches. Works fine.

 

The point is the .38 Special cartridge needs to approximate the length of the .357 magnum.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

"The point is the .38 Special cartridge needs to approximate the length of the .357 magnum."

--------------------

Not exactly. But moving in the right direction.

 

Maximum length of 38spl is listed as 1.55"

Maximum length for 357mag is listed as 1.60"

 

Molds for 38 caliber bullets have their crimp groove set so the 158 grain bullet is the correct length in 38spl cases and 125 grain bullets in 357 mag cases.

 

Also when 38 caliber bullets where design, these rounds where not uses in rifles very much. So the overall length was not important. Just that they fit in revolver cylinders. So most are shorter than spec length.

 

Now that we put 125 grain bullets in 38spl using the crimp groove designed fro revolvers, the overall length is signification shorter than maximum spec length.

 

If you want to use 125 grain bullets in 38spl cases, set your over all length closer to maximum overall length.

In may shop I load 38spl between 1.52" and 1.54" for Marlin rifles. This will usually put the case top in the lube groove. This works because crimping in the lube groove gives a shoulder for the case to push against keeping the bullet from being pushed back in to the case in the magazine tube under recoil.

 

There's more to this but this is a simple explanation of the issues of 38spl and the light weight bullets we choose to use.

 

Don't worry about not crimping in the designed crimp groove. These are lead alloy bullets. The crimping process will set the brass into the bullet making it's own crimp groove.

 

You can set the bullet closer to maximum 38spl length of 1.55" or you can use 357 mag brass and set your overall length closer to maximum overall length 1.60".

 

The issue is that two rounds can be on the elevator at one time when the rounds are short. The elevator ramp must work harder to push the second round buck up in to the magazine to left the first round up. The closer you get the second round to staying in the magazine and not on the elevator with the first round will make the rifle operate much more smoothly. #8 spl rounds that are less then 1.50" allow too much of the second round on to the elevator and may be past the ramp on the elevator that slides the second round forward when lifted.

 

Yes, a gunsmith can modify your elevator to work with these really short rounds. But if you start with rounds that are closer to the maximum spec length you will have far less issues to over come with jams caused by two rounds being on the elevator at the same time.

 

If you modify your rifle to use the shorter rounds then when you need to borrow rounds to finish a match, you may not be able to find any short enough to work in your rifle.

 

Besides, it's faster and cheaper to first address ammunition length. Then you can focus on slicking up your rifle to operate smoothly instead of fixing a problem to feed short length rounds.

[Chickahominy Charlie]

I like Cliff Hanger's detailed explanation, but let me a add a point or two I've learned when dealing with this issue over the last month or two. I load for both my daughter and myself.

 

We shoot a 92 in .357/.38 and the pistols are also .357/.38 (.38 only in my pistols). I was also told to load .38 to 1.50 OAL in order to overcome the feed issues in the rifle. Obviously, that OAL has no issue in a revolver since there are no "feed" issues (as opposed to autos). I loaded 125 gn TCFP's. I crimp in a separate step (after bullet seating). At 1.50 OAL, this set the crimp just above the lube groove. As CH stated, these are lead bullets and the crimp will make its own groove, so that's a non-issue.

 

However, what you will find is that the added OAL will cause powder combustion issues, depending upon the powder used. When I started, I tested three separate powders using this OAL and found Titegroup did the best job of burning all of the powder. YMMV, so experiment. When you lengthen the OAL, there's less time (milliseconds, but hey...) for the powder to completely combust before the bullet leaves the cartridge. There is also additional powder residue created because of this.

 

A few weeks ago, I decided to try to lessen the powder residue issue. Once again, I continued with the Titegroup, but went to a 158 gn bullet. The larger bullet size allows me to seat more bullet into the cartridge and still get the desired OAL for cycling in the rifle. You can obviously dabble with the recipe, but I find this combination yields (1) less powder residue in my pistols (2) a slightly higher felt recoil and (3) same cycling in the rifle as the previous recipe.

 

My daughter doesn't like the additional felt recoil (she's 13, so a guess to her it makes a difference ), so I continue to load 125's for her. I don't have a chrony, but I don't think the fps has increased greatly (heck, it may have even gone down some) -- the additional felt recoil is attributable to merely the force of pushing a heavier bullet out of the gun. However, the powder residue was a problem for me in my pistols. I shoot some 1871-2 Open Tops with very little cylinder gap and the residue was building up on the cylinder face causing it to become "gritty" when cocking after 4-5 stages (which is why I started messing with the 158's in the first place).

 

I don't claim to be any sort of expert when it comes to reloading, but I reloaded in other calibers (as well as .38/.357) before starting SASS, so I've learned quite a bit about the subject. I post this merely to give others something to think about....and comment.

 

Good luck, Pard!

 

Chick

[Boon Doggle]

Stormy Reinz at Master Craft Bullets makes a proprietary 160 grain “Long” RNFP that works extremely well in the Marlin 1894. It will go a long way in solving your problems of feeding 38’s in the .357. OAL 1.52 works real well in my Marlin.

And, Stormy is a great pard to deal with.

 

http://mastercraftbullets.com/

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

Just experiment with OAL, you will find what your rifle likes, it takes time but worth it in the end, I have several marlins, 2 in 357, one in 38 only, a CBC, and I have a 73 in 357, I experimented with OAL to get them to work in all my rifles, my OAL is 1.44, this is with a 158 grain RNFP, when I run out of these bullets plan on going to a 125 truncated bullet.

 

Just experiment with your OAL, every rifle is different, you have to find what fits your rifle the best and to run, with the posts up a head, they load longer than me, but this is what works in all of mine

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Chickahominy Charlie]

Stormy Reinz at Master Craft Bullets makes a proprietary 160 grain “Long” RNFP that works extremely well in the Marlin 1894. It will go a long way in solving your problems of feeding 38’s in the .357. OAL 1.52 works real well in my Marlin.

And, Stormy is a great pard to deal with.

 

http://mastercraftbullets.com/

 

 

Thanks for the tip, Boon! I may give those a try!

 

Chick

[Ktown Kid]

agree its COL...

 

changed to hunter&supply's 162g (designed for marlin's) and a COL of 1.515 (in .38 brass)...can get 10 rounds in the short 1894C, never a jam (but i try to run the gun to fast, thats my bad)...

[Noz]

Aren't the "Snake Bite" 357 bullets designed to give a 357 length 38 Special?

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

I'm suprised that Widdowmaker hasn't responded yet. He can point you in the right direction as to a couple of modifications that eliminate the OAL factor in Marlin 1894 rifles. If you search previous threads, you might find some more info on this topic.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Mongo.

 

I was staying out of this one for now. The OP didn't exactly state the circumstances of his jamming problem and what his rifle is actually doing. I mean, if he's putting one round in it and working the action and getting a jam, it ain't the OAL of his ammo.

 

If its jamming going into the chamber and the front of his carrier has cleared the mag tube hole, its probably not his OAL.

 

If its jamming going into the chamber because the bullet (lead portion) is catching on the upper portion of the chamber entrance, its probably not the OAL.

 

If his cases have been 'belled' to seat bullets and not properly crimped, that can cause issues also.

 

The Marlin can be made to feed just about anything you put in it including a combination of OAL rounds.

 

Now, all that being stated, if his problem is with OAL ammo, then the above info is very good and should help solve his problem.

 

If a Marlin has been setup (modified) to be a Widdermatic, then OAL, bullet style and weight, become none issues.

 

AND, even if the Widdermatic mod isn't setup in a Marlin, the timing change can still be incorporated into the carrier to help accomodate shorter ammo OAL.

 

For those of you who aren't familiar with this, check out Marauders website (marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html) and look at the pixs and videos of the Widdermatic and Widdermajik Marlins.

 

Also, I hope to post a great YouTube video of the Widdermajik later this week or early next week to show everyone that shorties or longies are no problems when the Marlin is set up correctly.

 

Happy Trails everyone.

 

 

..........Widder