tale of two 97's (suggestions welcome)

[Dred Bob]

I have acquired a couple of Win 97's specifically for shooting Wild Bunch.  Both are at best rough and one looks like it may have actually sat in the bottom of a WW1 trench for a few decades before making it's way into my collection.   I have a short barrel takedown (1931?) and a long barrel solid frame (1907?) that I was able to purchase at our local matches.  Neither shotgun is particularly reliable but I'd like to get to the point where at least one of them can make it through a couple or few stages without an issue.  

 

- The short barrel likes to lockup trying to cycle.   I also replaced the tube spring to allow 6 rnds in the tube but then it wouldn't feed the 6th shell.   It would stick in the tube.  I sprayed the action with some dry lube and the last shotshell seems to release pretty reliably but now the action locks up almost every other round..... 

 

- The long barrel was actually somewhat reliable UNTIL I decided to hit it with the same dry lube and now I think it is double feeding shells when I cycle, or not ejecting or something.  I tried to use it our last WB match and it was nearly impossible and kept finding multiple shotshells in the action and had to dump them out.  Quite distracting and honestly I'm not sure exactly what was going on except I was reduced to single feeding to get through a stage.

 

Is Dry lube causing any of these issues?  I didn't want to gum up the actions and thought it might be a clean way to free them up a bit, but since I applied the lubricant they've both started acting noticeably worse.   I know that these 97's are very complicated beasts with a lot of parts and intricately designed.  I plan on taking them apart this winter and just giving them a good cleaning.  I doubt I'll know a problem if I see one but at least maybe it'll help.  I've got nothing to loose at this point.

 

Any other suggestions?  like don't use "Dry Lube" in a 97' action....  

[Blackwater 53393]

Take them both to a gunsmith that’s familiar with and knowledgeable of the workings of the ‘97 in cowboy/WB shooting style!

 

You’ll be bucks ahead and your aggravation level will be much lower!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Short bbl - mag tube probably needs to be honed out to remove accumulated rust, dirt, etc and make for smooth shell handling.  Lockup - you would have to dig a lot deeper than you have so far to tell us what is causing "lockup"

 

Long bbl - although a dry lube applied in moderation should not cause feeding extra rounds (2 in action), I would remove that dry lube just to better diagnose.  Make one change at a time and test.  Find what causes that problem, and make one change to improve it.  If that fails, put things back if you made things worse. Thoughtfully diagnose and repair, one at a time, not "firing a parts cannon" at the problem.   Two shells feeding usually is a stuck/gummed up/badly worn shell stop.

 

I use dry lube in all my 97 mag tubes because it is lubricating without attracting much dust.  But the mag tubes still need a cleaning every 6 months.

 

But the short answer is what has already been said - a good 97 gunsmith will fix and teach you more than you can do yourself right now.  GJ

Edited November 7 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Dred Bob]

I don't know a gunsmith locally, still trying to find somebody.   If you know anybody in the NW Ohio region or a couple of hours away let me know.   

 

I don't want to put a bunch of money into these guns, it would probably be cheaper to buy another *good* one but then I'm still rolling the dice that I get a good one.  Worst case I use my coach gun in WB but I'm not shooting WB to use my Cowboy guns so what would be the point. 

 

ironically the tube is the one place I didn't actually spray the Dry Lube.   I think the shell stop(s) (i didn't know what it was called) was the original problem on the short which seemed to get fixed by the Dry Lube but now the action sticks and won't move forward every few rounds.  I have to give the carrier a direct push from the back.   The other gun was cycling pretty well but now I think the shell stops are letting more than one shell release....  

 

I did see the videos in a recent post on the 97 which were excellent although a little intimidating.   Winter project if I can't find a 97 gunsmith to look them over.  

 

 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Lassiter is in New Lebanon near the Dayton area.  He doesn't do much internet communication.  His phone number is: 937-687-1039.

[Dred Bob]

got it and I'll write it down.  You might want to edit out the number so it doesn't show up for the trolls and scammers and other miscreants.

 

Edited November 7 by Dred Bob

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

6 minutes ago, Dred Bob said:

got it and I'll write it down.  You might want to edit out the number so it doesn't show up for the trolls and scammers and other miscreants.

 

It's been on the wire since 2011.

[Blackwater 53393]

Lassiter is a professional gunsmith and his number is all over the internet.

 

He’s also an outstanding choice for getting your ‘97s up to peak performance and he’s a great competitor and supporter of SASS and the shooting sports.

 

A nice guy too!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Use silicone spray 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

For wild bunch, get a Winchester Model 12. They’re much more reliable, more parts available and faster. 

[Dred Bob]

56 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

For wild bunch, get a Winchester Model 12. They’re much more reliable, more parts available and faster. 

 

I haven't run into any for sale locally but I'll definitely add it to the watch list.   

[Sedalia Dave]

Neither of your 97s are beyond repair. As pointed out by others a gunsmith that is knowledgeable on 97s will have them both working flawlessly in no time. 

["Big Boston"]

On 11/7/2024 at 9:37 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

Neither of your 97s are beyond repair. As pointed out by others a gunsmith that is knowledgeable on 97s will have them both working flawlessly in no time. 

 

I`m not a gunsmith, although I do work on my own guns, and the 1897 Winchesters that I use for Cowboy action seem to require a bit more "repair" than any of my other cowboy guns. There are a lot of details to learn before working on a 1897, and to work on them you need some gunsmith tools along with a working knowledge of the beast. Access to spare parts is a plus as well. If a gunsmith with decent skills and a good working knowledge of them is available, that is certainly good advice.  First, the odds of having a reliable gun when it gets back are high, a opposed to the fix, test and repeat when you are learning.

 

The reality however is that some guns are beyond repair, or you'll run into the situation where the repairs required are beyond your or your gunsmiths skills and tools. There are parts of the gun that just plain wear out, to the point that reliable operation isn't a guarantee. The truth is that a lot of 1897s that would have been considered parts guns in the past, are being resurrected today, and gun restoration is common today. My guess, because yours are still functioning after a fashion, it is likely that they may be able to be put back into top shape economically. The economics is something to consider, it may be cheaper to buy a better one that doesn't need work. The comment about considering the Model 12 is something I'd embrace. The Model 12 is a better tool for Wild Bunch than the 1897. I have good 1897s, with working feed six, but they are just backups for my Model 12. Both are equally correct for Wild Bunch. However, running a model 12 hard is it's own skill set, there are a few tricks and techniques like "tilt while you pump" and filling the magazine tube is not the same as feeding an 870. Many of us learned to shotgun with an 870, the Model 12 works differently, and runs smoother. 

 

Getting a Model 12 would be like hitting the easy button and the cheaper button at the same time. Getting a 1897 to shoot six quickly requires a bit more tuning that feeding shells one at a time for Cowboy. I've tuned some of mine for Cowboy, but they would require a bit more work to get up to Wild Bunch standards. 

 

If you were to post some pictures, you'd likely get less general advice, who knows, perhaps someone would be able to spot a few obvious issues. 

 

Many good gunsmith hints on the Anvils channel https://www.youtube.com/@marknovak8255

 

One of your comments hinted at rust, according to Anvil, rust should be converted by boiling in water, then the loose bits are carded away. 

 

 

BB

 

[Dred Bob]

3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

....

 

Getting a Model 12 would be like hitting the easy button and the cheaper button at the same time. Getting a 1897 to shoot six quickly requires a bit more tuning that feeding shells one at a time for Cowboy. I've tuned some of mine for Cowboy, but they would require a bit more work to get up to Wild Bunch standards. 

 

 

 

I'm going to add a Model 12 to next year's watchlist.  I'm not looking to win my WB matches just looking for a chance to not be stuck clearing, checking, reloading, my 97 during a good stage.   I really love the 97s and want to keep it as my main WB shotgun.   I'm going to work on/with them.  The Model 12 sounds like a great plan B.

 

We just had our last match of the season Saturday and I was talking with one of the seasoned local cowboys there.  Said he starting shooting SASS with his buddy Lassiter.  That got my attention.   He's not a gunsmith but to say he's experienced working on these guns is probably an understatement.  He offered to let me bring the guns by his workshop this winter and work on them with me which in my book is even better than dropping them off somewhere.  Although equipment problems are frustrating working on and learning about these guns is its own hobby and reward.   Maybe with an experienced eye over my shoulder I won't ruin them and quite possibly he'll see a problem part we can fix or replace.   

["Big Boston"]

21 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

 

I'm going to add a Model 12 to next year's watchlist.  I'm not looking to win my WB matches just looking for a chance to not be stuck clearing, checking, reloading, my 97 during a good stage.   I really love the 97s and want to keep it as my main WB shotgun.   I'm going to work on/with them.  The Model 12 sounds like a great plan B.

 

We just had our last match of the season Saturday and I was talking with one of the seasoned local cowboys there.  Said he starting shooting SASS with his buddy Lassiter.  That got my attention.   He's not a gunsmith but to say he's experienced working on these guns is probably an understatement.  He offered to let me bring the guns by his workshop this winter and work on them with me which in my book is even better than dropping them off somewhere.  Although equipment problems are frustrating working on and learning about these guns is its own hobby and reward.   Maybe with an experienced eye over my shoulder I won't ruin them and quite possibly he'll see a problem part we can fix or replace.   

 

That's good news. Getting hands on experience with someone familiar with the 1897 is a bonus for sure. I recently worked with a shooter one province over with his issue. After sending pictures and doing a bit of research, the issue looked to be more than a quick fix, the shooter decided to take it to a local smith, and they were able to fix it. The expression "know when to hold them, and know when to fold them" seems to apply for working on your own guns. 

 

I'd like to add one comment, that the ammunition you use can be a factor as well. Basically an 1897 is designed to shoot just about any target ammo. The reality is that as the shotgun wears and gets old, sometimes it can get a bit fussy about what it's fed. As a rule, any shotgun with a chamber ring will prefer a shell with an all brass base. This is a product of how snug the chamber ring fits against the barrel, and how well the chamber ring and barrel line up. I'm not sure what or how it happens, but over time this area seems to need some tuning in. But if you test with some Federal Top Gun target ammo with it's brass plated steel base, if you have an issue, the Top Gun will find it. If running six rounds fast is the goal, the beasty has to feed and eject smoothly. 

 

BB