Help me solve a mystery

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

    Been a very long time since I posted on this wire. I have a question for those folks who might have some historical memory of the early years of US Firearms. There is a bit of a story here so let me give you some background. 

    Back in the last century when I started shooting SASS I bought an Uberti Cattleman in 44-40 with a second cylinder in 44mag. It was at best pretty bad. Shot so far to the left I had to add a slab of metal to the left side of the front sight. As time went on I started gaining on Colts ending up with two nickel 5-1/2" third gen. Nice guns, still have them but had to move away from the nickel as the sun would sit on the front sight in the afternoon giving me a fireball in the face. I bought a USFA in blue also 44-40. GREAT gun!  Then I had one of those moments in a gun shop where another USFA physically reached through the glass counter top, grabbed me buy the neck and forced me to buy it. I know, it's happened to some of you too. LOL  At any rate it was .45Colt. Didn't matter just had to have it. As things were at the time one of the people who worked at USFA was shooting with our club. I asked him if he could change the barrel and cylinder to 44-40 and give me the .45 Colt barrel and cylinder it came with. We did that. Won a lot of matches and annuals with those guns.

    Now back to the original Uberti and how this all comes together. I kept that hunk of junk as a learning piece. Make my repairing and tuning mistakes on that rather than screw up a good Colt or USFA.  At some point a few years ago I put the .45 Colt barrel and cylinder into the Uberti frame. Had to fit a new bolt as the original wouldn't mesh well with the different cylinder. Just to kill some time this winter I started doing some other work to that gun. That's when I noticed the markings on the barrel. On the top it's labeled "HARTFORD CT MODEL". Left side "45 COLT". Bottom, just up from extractor housing "ASMITALY * EMF S.A."

    So, if anybody's memory banks are in working condition it would be interesting to hear just how those barrel markings ended up on a USFA frame in a USFA box in a gun shop sold as "brandy spankin new!"

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

Early USFA revolvers used parts made in Italy then finished and assembled in the US by USFA.

 

I had one that had Uberti parts.

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

Yeah, that would make sense. Sort of a "Professional Parts Gun" you might say.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I knew some used Italian parts, I had heard Uberti, but marked as ASM is certainly interesting.

[Dutch Nichols, SASS #6461]

Sad thing is now that US made USFA's are drying up unscrupulous dealers are selling Italian parts guns as US made.Not a mistake because when questioned they either pull the guns or just sell them as US made guns. Gunbroker has an engraved model with an A prefix , ( early Rodeo ) that someone engraved and case colored, as a US made premium grade 100% US made gun !! Bid is now close to 4 grand with a 6 grand buy it now!

[Hawkeye Kid]

A old high school friend, before Gary Granger, who worked at USFA, told me many of the early barrels were sourced from Wilson Arms in Branford CT.   Even all the Uberti parts were stamped with the USFA markings.  Having a barrel off an USFA with any Italian markings sounds very odd.

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

Not only Italian markings but EMF was a competitor. This is part of why I posted the story. Some things just don't add up.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I can think of a couple of hypotheticals.  Maybe your buddy didn't give you back the same barrel you gave him.  Unlikely, but possible.  More likely, you bought the gun used, so it could have gotten that barrel and maybe cylinder swapped onto it by a previous owner who probably wanted to change caliber or barrel length.

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

10 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

More likely, you bought the gun used

That's the crux of the situation, the gun was sold as new and by all means of observation it was . What is interesting is that my other USFA was a custom order with BP frame. The barrel in that one is definitely marked with USFA as the maker but that was well into the time frame where they were making all their own stuff. The serial number on that gun is 200 guns later that the one in question. The older gun also developed wear marks on the case hardening of the hammer sides where there is none on the newer one. Other differences include firing pin protrusion. Newer gun is within specs. Older gun was .035" . Minimum spec is .045". When you put  all these little together the gun in question was a slop job.

[Hawkeye Kid]

Hi Jack, you didn't mention the year this transaction was made.  Found my USFA manual, its rev 5 dated 2001.  Under the Introduction it states " Firearms are hand built by true craftsmen and undergo the highest quality control in the industry.  To complete the process of making our frames they are machined right here at the Armory."

I believe USFA never made their own barrels.  Bought stock and cut/machined to length. 

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

I bought the gun in question Sept, 2001 from North Cove Outfitters in Old Saybrook. It's serial is 200 guns earlier than the prewar frame USFA I purchased in Dec of 2000.  That says it was laying around that shop for a long time. The pre war barrel says USFA on it. The one that USFA converted to 44-40 for me (the older serial number) has USFA markings on the barrel as well. That's why I am so confused about the stampings on the 45 barrel that came off that frame.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

All the time you owned the 45 Colt, you never noticed the barrel markings? 

Even upon initial examination when you purchased it you didnt see the Hartford marking?

Sounds like you may have gotten a different barrel back when you changed calibers.

[Jack Tar, SASS# 15099]

3 hours ago, Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L said:

All the time you owned the 45 Colt, you never noticed the barrel markings? 

Even upon initial examination when you purchased it you didnt see the Hartford marking?

Sounds like you may have gotten a different barrel back when you changed calibers.

Well, I did see the "Hartford CT Model" on the top of the barrel at time of purchase is 2001. Had no reason to look at the bottom, saw that marking when I screwed it into the Uberti frame. I don't think I even fired that gun as a 45 Colt before I had it changed to a 44-40. When that was done I just put the barrel and the cylinder in a drawer until I used them years later.  I used that gun  in concert with another USFA  BP frame gun I had bought in 2000 until 2006 when one of our club shooters who worked at Colt built me another BP frame one. The converted USFA (originally had the 45 bbl) then became my back up pistol for all matches. Still is. So no, the barrel was the same one it came with. Even though I bought it 9 months later than the BP frame USFA its serial number is 200 units earlier. Apparently at the time it was assembled they were using whatever barrels they could get their hands on. That barrel was absolutely made for an EMF but the frame is a USFA product right down to the numbers stamped into the loading gate.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

EMF sold firearms from Army San Marko. 

They had a model called Dakota, and Hartford.

The Hartford model was the top of there line.

The Dakota model was a secondary parts, that didn't make it to the Hartford.

On the left side of the Barrel, a lot of the Hartfords  said Frontier Six Shooter.

Good pistols I have 3 of them.

Parts were supposed to interchange  with Colts.

[Rye Miles #13621]

11 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

.

Parts were supposed to interchange  with Colts.

But they weren't. A local gunsmith here tried it and said there was no way!