Popcorn Kelly Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 I am interested in exploring the potential to hold a Cops vs. Cowboy match. We think it'd add an interesting dimension to our shooting season and encourage some cross-discipline interest. As such, I am looking for some guidance, e.g., rules, description; stages used, other general instructions, or just good ol' advice. Really, anything that will help me understand this type of match and help me get up to speed on how to put on one of these matches. I'd like to use pistols, rifles, and shotguns. If anyone has information/advice and is willing to share it, please post it here or email me at popcorn.kelly@outlook.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Check with the Tejas Caballeros Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/433170060471844, they have put one a match annually for the last 3 years that I know of. They have a lot of experience with this. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Trigger Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Varies quite a bit, but typically -) COPS shoot their "Duty" weapons while cowboys shoot their traditional weapons. -) Cops shoot free. -) Cops shoot at paper targets above the Cowboy targets since it would be problematic for them to shoot lead ammo. -) Cop mags are limited to 5 rounds. -) Cop shotguns (and often cowboy) can be loaded before stage starts (similar to wild bunch) -) All (most) proceeds go to a charity benefiting cops. -) After event the cops will often shoot a stage or two with their "new friends cowboy guns." -) Each cop gives out a "get-out-of-one-speeding-ticket courtesy card," or maybe not. Definitely follow Texas Maverick's advice and contact the Cabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I think many cops avoid this kind of match, don’t want to be embarrassed by old farts shooting 19th century technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 The leo's are not used to shooting a pure speed game up close. Some of the matches each group has shot both sets of guns. More cowboy shooters are likely to also have experience with modern guns vs the leo's with the cowboy guns. But they don't like getting beat by middle aged housewives in the modern gun games either. We have a couple of fantastic law enforcement shooters in our area. One shoots carry optics the other with a 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popcorn Kelly Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 I'm not sure we could pull off a true "cops vs cowboys" match, if the "cops" side is limited to just law enforcement personnel. We don't have the contacts to pull it off. My thoughts are to host a competition based on the cops vs cowboys concept (guns, rules, stage design, etc.) but open it up to anyone with qualifying guns. Law enforcement personnel would certainly be welcome to participate, but I also think (know) there are other (non-cowboy) members of our larger gun club that are interested in participating in such a competition as well. I'm really looking for the rules governing what guns are allowed on the "cops" side, information on their targets (paper I believe), and how stages are set up so one side shoots paper and the cowboys should steel (or does everyone shoot paper?). Written procedures for how shooters come to the loading table, shooting line, unloading table, etc., would also be helpful. A set of 10 or 20 stages would also help quite a bit. Essentially, I'd like to leverage others' experience and knowledge to help get us started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Trigger Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 29 minutes ago, Popcorn Kelly said: I'm not sure we could pull off a true "cops vs cowboys" match, if the "cops" side is limited to just law enforcement personnel. We don't have the contacts to pull it off. If you don’t define weapons as “LEO Duty Weapons”, it sounds like you should put on a wild bunch (or IDPA) match instead rather than trying to create a complete new set of rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I would follow the Duel in the Desert format. Two or three Cowboy stages, two or three modern stages. Everyone shoots Cowboy guns on the Cowboy stages, everyone shoots modern guns on the modern stages. For modern I would say minimums are 9 mm, 12 gauge and .556. Standard Cowboy round counts for Cowboy stages and a high enough round count on the moderns to require each gun be reloaded at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashknife Cowboy Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Too many of the young officers don't know the significance of this duty weapon....a few years ago I shot against a bunch of plastic duty Glocks in the hands of LEO's and kept up. Just saying...... Now I know many CAS shooters that are much faster than the LEO's will be. Go have a fund raising time and enjoy. It will be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 When I was on the job, the majority of officers were not gun guys. Maybe a dozen out of 80 odd. Most of those on the Dept. Pistol Team. All did have to qualify, but easy peasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Hashknife Cowboy said: Too many of the young officers don't know the significance of this duty weapon....a few years ago I shot against a bunch of plastic duty Glocks in the hands of LEO's and kept up. Just saying...... Now I know many CAS shooters that are much faster than the LEO's will be. Go have a fund raising time and enjoy. It will be fun. I carried one of these for over 12 years and still have it except mine was stainless since I lived in Denver and didn't want to mess with worrying about rust with all our different weather that we worked in. They were reliable and I could depend on it not jamming if needed. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 13 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I think many cops avoid this kind of match, don’t want to be embarrassed by old farts shooting 19th century technology. Not true, at least around here in central Texas. We open it to anyone in Law Enforcement that want to shoot. We get officers from 5 or 6 different departments and they all have a good time and can fill up at least 1 posse with the Cowboys doing the timer and spotting duties. They have won I believe 2 out of the 3 matches and everyone has fun. Then they do have a shoot off at the end with the top Cowboy and top Officer. Then we do let them shoot our guns a stage or 2 after the main match is over. TM 10 hours ago, Popcorn Kelly said: I'm not sure we could pull off a true "cops vs cowboys" match, if the "cops" side is limited to just law enforcement personnel. We don't have the contacts to pull it off. My thoughts are to host a competition based on the cops vs cowboys concept (guns, rules, stage design, etc.) but open it up to anyone with qualifying guns. Law enforcement personnel would certainly be welcome to participate, but I also think (know) there are other (non-cowboy) members of our larger gun club that are interested in participating in such a competition as well. I'm really looking for the rules governing what guns are allowed on the "cops" side, information on their targets (paper I believe), and how stages are set up so one side shoots paper and the cowboys should steel (or does everyone shoot paper?). Written procedures for how shooters come to the loading table, shooting line, unloading table, etc., would also be helpful. A set of 10 or 20 stages would also help quite a bit. Essentially, I'd like to leverage others' experience and knowledge to help get us started. Still recommend you get with the Cabs as stated above. I believe they can provide you with everything you are asking for. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popcorn Kelly Posted July 2 Author Share Posted July 2 TM - I've in the process of contacting them. Thanks for the suggestion. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 39 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said: Not true, at least around here in central Texas. We open it to anyone in Law Enforcement that want to shoot. We get officers from 5 or 6 different departments and they all have a good time and can fill up at least 1 posse with the Cowboys doing the timer and spotting duties. They have won I believe 2 out of the 3 matches and everyone has fun. Then they do have a shoot off at the end with the top Cowboy and top Officer. Then we do let them shoot our guns a stage or 2 after the main match is over. TM Still recommend you get with the Cabs as stated above. I believe they can provide you with everything you are asking for. TM You’re saying cops shoot modern weapons while cowboys shoot cowboy guns and the cops ‘win’? That’s not surprising. In the Duel in the Desert each group shot their typical guns for some stages and then shot the other group’s typical guns for some stages. The winners were Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud and Holy Terror if memory serves. That was a fair way to compete in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 59 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: You’re saying cops shoot modern weapons while cowboys shoot cowboy guns and the cops ‘win’? That’s not surprising. In the Duel in the Desert each group shot their typical guns for some stages and then shot the other group’s typical guns for some stages. The winners were Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud and Holy Terror if memory serves. That was a fair way to compete in my view. They have won 2 out of 3. They don't run away with it like you would think. They are close matches. We have some very good cowboys here in central Texas that give them a run for the money. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: You’re saying cops shoot modern weapons while cowboys shoot cowboy guns and the cops ‘win’? That’s not surprising. In the Duel in the Desert each group shot their typical guns for some stages and then shot the other group’s typical guns for some stages. The winners were Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud and Holy Terror if memory serves. That was a fair way to compete in my view. It's also not surprising that the cowboys would win in this scenario. As I already mentioned, more of the cowboy shooters are experienced with both the cowboy guns and the modern guns. Far fewer of the cops are likely to be experienced with the cowboy guns. Much easier for a cowboy to pull the trigger on a semi auto then for a cop inexperienced with cowboy guns to suddenly be fast cocking and shooting a single action or working a lever gun. Something would be wrong if the cowboys didn't when that match . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 20 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I think many cops avoid this kind of match, don’t want to be embarrassed by old farts shooting 19th century technology. This was our experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Trigger Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Several Cowboys (who play as cops during the week) shoot on the LEO side, and there are a few LEO’s who shoot IDPA so the cops have a slight weapons advantage. Often comes down to who is available to shoot that day. I would be very hesitant to have people start shooting guns that they do not have familiarity with “on the clock” in a mixed gun scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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