What's the Call / Who can make it - Smoke Factor

[Tyrel Cody]

Purely hypothetical, but let's imagine a shooter is in a Frontier Cartridge Category and it's obvious to at least half the posse that the shooter is NOT meeting smoke factor. 

 

Can the Posse Marshall issue a challenge? Should they? Or must a challenge come from a fellow competitor?

 

What's the process? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rip Snorter]

Science? https://www.emxindustrialsensors.com/get-proactive-with-smoke-density-measurement/

[Tyrel Cody]

6 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Science? https://www.emxindustrialsensors.com/get-proactive-with-smoke-density-measurement/

I know how to subjectively test smoke factor, I'm asking about who can/should initiate the challenge.

[Marshal Fire, SASS 10064]

Not sure who can make “the call” on the smoke factor. It is a difficult call as weather can make a big difference. A hot humid day seems to produce more smoke. I recently shot Hell on the Border in the Frontiersmen class. The second day of the shoot had humid conditions early in the morning with little to no wind. After the first gun lost sight of the targets. Same loads use at EOT in Phoenix did not have the same issues.

[Tyrel Cody]

1 minute ago, Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 said:

Not sure who can make “the call” on the smoke factor. It is a difficult call as weather can make a big difference. A hot humid day seems to produce more smoke. I recently shot Hell on the Border in the Frontiersmen class. The second day of the shoot had humid conditions early in the morning with little to no wind. After the first gun lost sight of the targets. Same loads use at EOT in Phoenix did not have the same issues.

 

Right but for arguments sake shooter A shoots .38's and the targets are fairly obscured. Shooter B shoots immediately after with .38's and the targets not obscured at all; VERY obvious to most that shooter B is not making it.

[Marshal Fire, SASS 10064]

First shooter is using a full case of APP which produces more white smoke than the second shoot who is using real BP with a filler but meets the SASS minimum loads ?.

don’t get me wrong I understand your issue. As a frequent shooter in frontiersmen and frontier cartridge I have seen others in the same class who run loads that I would question. Heck shot against one guy who I thought was using Bullseye which is a smokeless powders that tends so produce some smoke. 

[German Jim]

I also wondered who could make the call on the smoke factor.  If someone questioned it, I guess the match director could disassemble one of "suspects" random cartridges and see if it contains at least (what is it?) 1cc of black powder or black powder substitute.

[Tyrel Cody]

2 minutes ago, German Jim said:

I also wondered who could make the call on the smoke factor.  If someone questioned it, I guess the match director could disassemble one of "suspects" random cartridges and see if it contains at least (what is it?) 1cc of black powder or black powder substitute.

 

That's not how the testing is done nor what this question is about.  The actual testing is shooting the competitor ammo against cartridges with 1cc of BP and comparing smoke; pretty subjective.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

While every participant is a safety officer, the assigned Range Officers are the ONLY persons who may judge a shooter, whether on or away from the firing line. These judging responsibilities range from watching for misses and hits, correct target order engagement, appropriate completion of stage instructions, safety violations, legal or illegal equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and any category specific requirements, such as to adequately produce smoke by the blackpowder category participants.

RO2 p.14

 

Quote

Challenges, such as questions of illegal ammunition, illegal firearms and/or modifications, illegal costuming, inadequate blackpowder smoke, calls made away from the firing line, and such will generally require some sort of inspection or documentation process and should be handled with generous respect for the shooter being questioned. The assigned Posse Officials making the call should take all of these type challenges directly to the Match RO or Range Master for assistance in resolution.

RO2 p.15

 

The "assigned Range Officers/Posse Officials" include the Posse Marshal (and assistant PM), as well as the Timer Operator while on duty.

 

Also:
 

Quote

The Range Master or Match Director may, at their sole discretion, require the testing of any ammunition suspected of not meeting SASS ammunition specifications at any time during the match.

SHB p.25

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

It's a good question.  I would imagine that at a big match a fellow competitor in the same category could make a challenge.  At a local match a lot of people don't want to be the one to challenge.  I would also think the MD would always be able to.  I will be waiting to see what the official answer is.

 

edit: well, PWB answered just before I did.

[Tyrel Cody]

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Thank you!