John Boy Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Yeah, that is the issue with black powder quality. While 40gr by VOLUME of Swiss FFg may weigh 40gr, Cheap garbage brand A black powder, 40gr by volume may only weigh 35gr...thus 40gr by weight of the cheap black powder will not fit into a 40gr by volume case....typically creating less performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 And in the reverse case it could leave an air space and cause detonation and injury. That is why you never go by weight because lot to lot variation in density is common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Been a long time, but I still have a scoop I made out of a cartridge case, and the loads were all slightly compressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Hallelujah!!! Thank you Mike for dispelling the myth about grains/volume and thank you John Boy for posting this. By the way, did anybody notice when Mike scooped some powder with the Lee dipper he scraped off the excess with a card? He did not shake the dipper to settle it, and he did not pour the heaped up powder onto the scale. If you want consistency when dipping Black Powder I have always found scraping off the excess to be the best method. Thank you Mike for explaining the difference between weighing powder and dispensing it by volume. Yes, when I load Black Powder cartridges I load them with a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on my Hornady Lock and Load A&P progressive press. Yes, the measure dispenses powder by volume. I have several rotors from old Lyman smokeless powder measures. I set each one for a particular VOLUME of powder I want to dispense. This is the rotor I use for both 45 Colt and 44-40. It is set to dispense 2.2CC of powder. I discovered a long time ago that different brands of powder actually weigh different amounts. I made up this chart for the most common charges I put in cartridges. Notice the different actual weights of 2.2CC of the three powders. Elephant is not made anymore, and I stopped using Goex quite a while ago. All I use these days is Schuetzen FFg. I am not into super precision long range BP cartridge shooting. If I was I would be weighing each 45-70 charge for consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 13 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: Hallelujah!!! Thank you Mike for dispelling the myth about grains/volume and thank you John Boy for posting this. I have been saying it for the past 14 years with the advent of the internet, on this forums, but was met with great resistance on many forums by guys that have been handloading for 1,000 years. On the bottom of the Dupont powder cans, "Read Instructions On Wrapper" is mentioned. This is the Wrapper sheet !! Form 57, 8-22-99 (1899) - This is an example of the load data sheet that also acted as a "wrapper" for the Dupont smokeless powder kegs. This is the absolute only one I have ever seen and is in my possession. This is for the No.1 Rifle Smokeless Powder which would be the red keg. The 44-40 used Dupont No.2 in the blue keg. The outside label probably would have been the same but with a No.2. Note the loading instructions, velocity and pressure comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 To add...Dupont No.2 was used, by Winchester, in the 44-40 from 1895 till 1925. If the information on the load data "Wrapper" sheet is correct (from 1899), to which states that this smokeless powder produced less pressures than black powder...then why was it advised that smokeless not be used in Colt's revolvers? Simple, it was safe but Winchester yielded to not want to be responsible for any ill effects if used in Colt's revolvers. AND, Colt's issues was with the faster burning pistol powders, certainly not the "lower than black powder pressures" Dupont No.2 smokeless powder 44-40 and 45 Colt loads.To get back on topic, Dupont No. 1 and No. 2 was loaded by volume, to the base of the bullet. It just so happened that 17gr by weight was typically the measure when loaded by weight for the 44-40. However, I have found as little as 15gr by weight in some vintage 44-40 lead cartridges from red label 1914 boxes. This was NOT the case when handloaders used faster burning pistol powders for the 44-40 and 45 Colt which was, Unique (1899) and Bullseye (1900) when regarding "loading by weight" for pressure limits. Thus, When loading the 44-40....Black Powder Loaded by weight, 40gr by weight equaled 40gr by volume...loaded by weight or volume then compressed as needed (.17" to .21") to seat the bullet accordingly. Loaded by volume, ("Cheap Black Powder") if 40gr by volume equaled less than 40gr by weight like we see today with most black powders. Smokeless Powder Loaded by Volume, Dupont No.2 Smokeless Powder was loaded by volume to the base of the bullet as instructed regardless of weight, without compressing the powder...17gr by weight if weight was consistent. Loaded by Weight, Bullseye, introduced in 1899 (low volume faster burning, higher pressures) Loaded by Weight, Unique, introduced in 1900 (low volume faster burning, higher pressures) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted February 14, 2022 Author Share Posted February 14, 2022 Bull, I measure based on weight and based on your post …. I should have been carried out of the reloading room in a basket And in the reverse case it could leave an air space and cause detonation and injury. That is why you never go by weight because lot to lot variation in density is common Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 1 hour ago, John Boy said: Bull, I measure based on weight and based on your post …. I should have been carried out of the reloading room in a basket And in the reverse case it could leave an air space and cause detonation and injury. That is why you never go by weight because lot to lot variation in density is common Nope, if 40gr of black powder by volume only weights 32gr, it still fills the same volume...duh! I measure based on weight because I use full charges and compress the powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 My own experience with black powder is, for now, much more limited. What I do before I start loading is put enough powder in the case to have the proper amount of compression, and then I weigh that charge. I then just use my scale to duplicate that amount for each subsequent cartridge. But I have found after determining how "much" to put in, that the weight of that amount gives me a very consistent load. Depending on if I am using real black or a substitute, I always start from scratch as above to determine the proper amount to use. So far, I have had no problems. I have also talked about proper procedures with people like Driftwood, reading the instructions for the stuff I am using, and so on and so forth. If I ever get more experienced and/or confident with the stuff, I may feel a little less "extra cautious" but I don't want to risk a mistake with this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted February 14, 2022 Share Posted February 14, 2022 Life used to be so simple - back in the day they used proper size spring loaded powder flasks. Had one each for a '49, '51. and '60's. They worked just fine. as did scoops I made out of cut down cartridge cases. Suspect when / if I go back to the Dark Side they still work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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