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Fast Enuff

Proposed movement rule.

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Here is a proposed movement rule that might solve the issues of undesired movement.

"It is not permitted to move between shooting positions with a cocked hammer on any firearm unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions. Also, one foot must remain on the ground at all times during a shooting string unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions."

 

(first revision 2:20pm 01-19-15)

 

"It is not permitted to move between shooting positions with any firearm that is not in a condition safe for movement unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions. Also, one foot must remain on the ground at all times during a shooting string unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions."

 

(See RO1 Page 16 for conditions safe for movement.)


The first sentence makes it impossible to move while shooting at all between two positions unless the stage writer specifically allows it. So unlike the traveling rule, if someone sees a loophole in the stage design that would allow shooting the pistol or rifle or shotgun on the move somehow, you can't because cocking any hammer between the shooting positions would be a SDQ.

The second sentence addresses the issues of not allowing running/hopping/skipping/jumping during shooting strings, but still allows running between positions while not shooting if so desired. The "unless otherwise specified" provides leeway for people to sit on a horse or in an ore cart or sit on a chair and shoot when their feet may be off the ground.

It would allow all the foot adjustment and stance fixing at a shooting position that you want, so no more worrying about shuffling your feet while you are engaging targets or being stuck leaning way over because you can't move both feet with a cocked gun.

I would like to stress that this maintains all the flavor of a SASS stage, which centers around shooting fixed banks of targets from shooting positions but allows the occasional interest of shooting between two positions when the stage writer designs it that way. This keeps any potential limited movement while shooting ultra safe as it will be strictly defined and limited to certain areas. (kind of like we do now with the shotgun between A and B stages. It's built specifically to work that way.)

This also makes the stage writers job much easier because a shooter cannot grossly violate the stage design intent with movement that was not intended in the stage design.

The only thing that requires a decision is whether or not the shooter was between shooting positions with a cocked gun. This is a much easier and less opinion driven call.

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1st Question......Stage instructions say "with shotgun engage two targets from position A then move to position B and engage the two targets". 97's and SxS's (non external hammered) are cocked when opened. The way I read it they wouldn't be allowed to move.

 

2nd Question....almost any of our guns can be continuously fired while moving and keeping at least 1 foot on the ground. That's the loophole for the travelling rule. How is yours different?

 

I'm not poo pooing your idea......I think it's a worthy endeavor.

 

I'll take a stab.......

 

Moving both feet while actively engaging targets during a string is not allowed. Engaging targets while moving between shooting positions is not allowed. If stage instructions allow for target engagement between any two positions once the shooter has engaged the targets they may not move both feet.

 

Stan

 

PS.....Feel free to poke holes.

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Why not just do away with all the rules on movement. If a shooter wants to shoot and move let'em. If they don't, it is their choice. There is no good reason for not allowing movement. By not allowing movement we have pages and pages of trying to define what is movement and what is not.

L.

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Why not just do away with all the rules on movement. If a shooter wants to shoot and move let'em. If they don't, it is their choice. There is no good reason for not allowing movement. By not allowing movement we have pages and pages of trying to define what is movement and what is not.

L.

Because the WB wants it that way and apparently so do a lot of other folks.....while I don't agree with them on the safety aspect I can certainly respect that it's their choice to say NO moving while shooting.

 

I would prefer that the wording be better than its current form and for the rules to spell it out better and an appropriate penalty to be laid out. As it is all we have is some wording added to a statement with no specific penalty.....

 

Everyone needs to keep in mind that 999 times out of 1000 it is much FASTER to haul butt to position B and shoot than it is to shoot your way from Position A to Position B. The targets have to be right.....the movement....the distance to cover has to be right and the stage description has to be right.....Have I done it? Yep....got a nice video of it.....do I think it's nearly as big a deal as others have made it out to be.....NOPE.

 

As stated above the definition of it needs to be clear and so does the penalty......I have no stance against the prohibition other than that.

 

Stan - who thinks we should be allowed to shoot while moving but really could careless because rarely does it make sense to do so.

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It's not per the move rules on RO1 page 16:

 

Rifle

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

• Empty, action open

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

• Shotgun

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

• Empty, action open

Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

• Action open, round in chamber or on carrier

• Hammer(s) fully down on empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

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1st Question......Stage instructions say "with shotgun engage two targets from position A then move to position B and engage the two targets". 97's and SxS's (non external hammered) are cocked when opened. The way I read it they wouldn't be allowed to move.

 

2nd Question....almost any of our guns can be continuously fired while moving and keeping at least 1 foot on the ground. That's the loophole for the travelling rule. How is yours different?

 

I'm not poo pooing your idea......I think it's a worthy endeavor.

 

I'll take a stab.......

 

Moving both feet while actively engaging targets during a string is not allowed. Engaging targets while moving between shooting positions is not allowed. If stage instructions allow for target engagement between any two positions once the shooter has engaged the targets they may not move both feet.

 

Stan

 

PS.....Feel free to poke holes.

Your first question won't be an issue. We already have that trouble with the current rule books. It is already covered under the "safe for movement" rules. It could be easily reworded to make sure that is understood.

 

Your second question: You would be allowed to, but only where allowed by the stage writer. You cant cock a gun (or close the shotgun) between positions unless specifically allowed which limits your "moving while shooting" to the shooting positions itself. But movement AT the position is allowed.

 

As for your rule suggestion, not bad. But the first sentence "Moving both feet while actively engaging targets during a string is not allowed." provides all the same problems we have now with the new clarification. We have to get away from talking about what the feet are doing during engagement. I have made the penalty based on what condition your gun is in (something the spotters and TO should be looking for anyway), not what your feet are doing.

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So first revision to make it better but without changing the result or adding more text:

 

"It is not permitted to move between shooting positions with any firearm that is not in a condition safe for movement unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions. Also, one foot must remain on the ground at all times during a shooting string unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions."

 

(See RO1 Page 16 for conditions safe for movement.)

 

 

As a side note, I just had a call from a friend who told me the original wording I had made split pistols impossible because a shooting string consists of all shots from the same type of firearm. This idea from Stan and the reference to the relevant rule from Curly Red fixes that. I like it. That really makes it better, but not longer or more complicated. Thanks for the input. Let's keep going.

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FE. The second sentence in your rule specifically talks about what the feet are doing.

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True. But that's during the shooting string and not the movement between positions. There are a lot of very strong opinions especially about the possibility of outright running while shooting that have to be addressed to get acceptance from a majority.

 

It would be hard to miss a shooter doing something so active while shooting the guns that both feet come off the ground. It is pretty easy to understand also as it is very similar to the traveling rule we have been used to, during the shooting strings.

 

It keeps the decision making to big easy things to spot.

1) did the shooter do something that got both feet off the ground during a shooting string?

2) did the shooter do something between shooting positions that does not fall under "safe for movement"?

 

Those two things are hard not to notice and are very in line with what we already do and look for without adding extra workload.

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Fast Enuff, I admire your effort to improve the rule.

 

Sante Fe River Stan, I agree with you that there should be no restriction on movement.

 

The problem appears to arise by allowing some movement...the basketball rule itself is the problem. So if we are not allowed to have complete freedom of movement, then why not prohibit movement completely? Eliminate the basketball rule. If the WB insists that we are not allowed to move while shooting, make a rule something like:

 

"Once the shooter has fired the first shot from a gun, he may not move his feet until the gun is shot dry."

 

At "Comin' At Cha", there was a local rule that shotshells could not be chambered until the shooter had taken his final stance...no chambering while moving from one spot to another. They called it "plant and poke". I don't recall anyone having a problem with that rule. Maybe "plant and fire" should be the rule for every gun.

 

I used to think I was a pretty good Timer Operator, but stuff like this makes me want to avoid running the timer completely!

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Stage instructions will detail round counts and specified position for their expenditure.

All round counts will occur from the specified position (behind table - thru window - at marker, etc.).

"From the specified position" is defined as within one step of the marker.

Shooting from anywhere other than from specified positions is expressly forbidden

 

If the shooter discharges a round from a non specified position, they will incur a "P" - unless a greater penalty is appropriate.

A shooter may move along the firing line to the "specified positions" with firearms in "Safe to move" condition as is currently defined.

 

Not saying that this is the best solution - but seems to be the direction we are heading.

If so - make it the rule.

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J-BAR, I know you are frustrated, but it would be nice to keep what we have been having fun doing with without just giving up and losing it all so to speak.

 

It's important to stay focused on providing a better idea or a fix for the issues caused by this particular clarification. If other more extreme desires for or against movement are rolled into this debate it will only polarize the sides and there won't be any common ground.

 

Creeker, it does seem to be the direction we are headed but it would be very very nice to leave the leeway for stage design to allow for options like shooting the shotgun between positions. I know that for example at our own club we have recently lost the ability to stage vertically for now and having some other tricks in the bag to keep stages interesting has been a big help. Without options to make some stages like that it gets very repetitive. The shooters really like the progressive activity between positions. It provides something to do besides try to run between tables as fast as possible. I get your point though.

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At the beep shooter go to window one, he will fire one shot at round circle, second shot at duck, with hammer down on empty case move to window 2, engage target with 3 shoots. holster empty gun, go to next window, draw second pistol fire 2 shots at pig, one shot at spinner with hammer down on empty case move to next window fire 2 shots at diamond holster pistol.

Is this allowed, because this is what we did in SASS for more than 10 years.

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Under my proposed rule that would be totally fine! No extra stage instructions necessary. Nothing changes from the way we do it now.

 

In fact, you would be slightly safer from penalty because shifting both feet with your pistol cocked to get a better view at one of those shooting positions for example won't get you a SDQ like it used to.

 

But you had better have the hammer down (safe for movement) as usual between windows or SDQ.

 

Pretty easy.

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At the beep shooter go to window one, he will fire one shot at round circle, second shot at duck, with hammer down on empty case move to window 2, engage target with 3 shoots. holster empty gun, go to next window, draw second pistol fire 2 shots at pig, one shot at spinner with hammer down on empty case move to next window fire 2 shots at diamond holster pistol.Is this allowed, because this is what we did in SASS for more than 10 years.

 

I'm not a member of the Wild Bunch nor the ROC, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. I've been trying to decipher the clarification and "read between the lines." It is my OPINION, dor what's that worth, that YES, what you have stated will continue to be allowed. What will not be allowed is the walking/running and shooting. It appears that the Wild Bunch does not want us to shoot on the move so to speak, but we can move, shoot, move, shoot as you illistrated.

 

What would be nice is to get a statement from the ROC or Wild Bunch just exactly what the intent of this "clarification" is. We've sure used up a lot of bandwith cussing and discussing this issue. We can propose any number of rules rewrites, but until we know exactly what the Wild Bunch wants we are just &$@@ing in the wind.

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So what's the legal waiting period from shot to movement, or movement to shot? Needs to be like it was or a timed waiting period. Not somebody thinking I guess that fella should have a penalty. ......

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Lunger,

 

The rule I proposed here has no waiting period or delay. While you are at the shooting position, whether it is a specific position, or defined as between A to B, you are free for movement and shooting at that position without penalty, as long as one foot stays on the ground while you are at it. That would mean that any movement speed that keeps at least one foot on the ground as you shoot the string... is OK.

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Fast Enuff, thanks for the input and bringing your rewrite to the wire for discussion,but once you think you have a workable solution present it to your TG and he can bring it to the ROC and you may become famous or infamous.

 

KK

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