Ruger Montado

[MOBrian]

Ruger Montado, 3.5" barrel, does it qualify as a pocket pistol?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

No. Read your rules. Any gun that is a main match gun (Montado qualifies) can not be a pocket pistol, even if it "fits in your pocket", and regardless of how long the barrel is.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

In a word , NO. It is a full sized frame. Not legal under the Pocket Pistol guidelines.

Rex

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Since the montado is more or less a vaquero and is approved as a main match revolver, it is NOT approved as a pocket pistol.

 

 

From the shooters handbook page 17

POCKET PISTOLS AND DERRINGERS

Pocket pistols and Derringers are popular for use in side matches and are occasionally

introduced as an additional firearm in main match stages.

• A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length

of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model “P” Colts and

clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of

caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main

match revolvers.

• A Derringer is defined as an external hammer, fixed sight, breech loading or percussion

ignition, small frame pre-1900 design firearm having one to four barrels up to three and one-

half inches long. Derringers must be .22 caliber or larger. The Remington style over/under

barrel configuration and the Sharps four-barreled Pepperbox are typical SASS–legal

Derringers.

• .22 Magnum ammunition is not allowed.

[MOBrian]

Since the montado is more or less a vaquero and is approved as a main match revolver, it is NOT approved as a pocket pistol.

 

 

From the shooters handbook page 17

[MOBrian]

Thank you all for your replies. Missed the part that a pocket pistol cannot be listed as a main match pistol.

[BJT]

It is a full size frame, I think that disqualifies it.

 

As far as the main match gun thing, there is a chicken and egg issue here.

 

I believe there are models of revolver that are small frame that are main match only in 4+ inch configuration and are pocket pistols only in sub 4 inch configuration. The same model may be both main match or pocket pistol depending on the barrel length.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I believe there are models of revolver that are small frame that are main match only in 4+ inch configuration and are pocket pistols only in sub 4 inch configuration. The same model may be both main match or pocket pistol depending on the barrel length.

 

Now you got me curious. Can you cite one?

 

Thanks, GJ

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

1849 Colt.

[BJT]

The 1862 pocket navy would be another.....

 

Cheers,

BJT

[BJT]

Smith&Wesson model 2 would be another......

 

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1849 Colt.

Fails the test for caliber. Minimum allowed in a percussion main match pistol is .36. Colt 1849s were made in .31 caliber only.

 

REVOLVER CALIBERS (for main match revolvers)

• Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber.

 

So, no 1849s allowed in a main match.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Fails the test for caliber. Minimum allowed in a percussion main match pistol is .36. Colt 1849s were made in .31 caliber only.

 

 

 

So, no 1849s allowed in a main match.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Works with a ctg conversion cylinder...IF you can make either smoke or PF/MinVel standards with the .32 cal cartridges

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Smith&Wesson model 2 would be another......

 

 

Cheers,

BJT

Believe that would be pretty limited as to ammunition availability (it's a .32 rimfire). And the valuation of the gun itself is pretty high. I would have to believe that it would be declared as not legal as a main match pistol due to the very small frame size and

 

 

a pretty good estimate of the .32 Short Rimfire cartridge specifications would be an 80-gr. bullet at about 650 to 700 fps from a 5" revolver barrel.

 

Hmmm, that does not make the minimum power factor for main match revolvers, assuming you could even find that 1860 vintage ammo.

 

GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Works with a ctg conversion cylinder...IF you can make either smoke or PF/MinVel standards with the .32 cal cartridges

Really? Both the R&D and Kirst conversion cylinders I see listed for sale are .32 S&W caliber only. I was under the understanding that it would take about 1 CC of powder capacity to make enough smoke for that to pass main match requirements. .32 S&W (short) is able to do that?

 

In smokeless, it's probably likely that .32 S&W can reliably make 60 PF, as I find loads for it using 84 grain bullets at 800 FPS (67 PF). Which almost sounds like a 60 PF might be too low for main match use (hahah ooops, sorry to be goring someone's oxen).

 

Just what most folks want - a single action pocket pistol using a conversion cylinder that costs $200 on top of the pistol itself, just to get beat by some cheapo double action topbreak H&R or IJ in a side match.

 

Wow, it's amazing what discussions turn to when we're all snowed in (or natural gassed out, as we are in New Mexico now).

 

GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The 1862 pocket navy would be another.....

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Ding, ding, ding. A winner in the contest!

 

Lessee, when was the last time I saw a snubbie '62 used in a pocket pistol match? Hmmmm. Can't say I ever did. I'd believe it has been tried, though.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

All this discussion does lead to questioning just what is the precise criteria for a "small frame" revolver. And what makes an 1849 or 1862 small enough to qualify as a small frame for pocket pistol and large enough to qualify as the minimum frame size normally cited as allowed in main match guns, the Model P Colt? We have perfectly acceptable "large frame" pocket pistols (at least, ones that H&R and IJ classified as their "large frame" pocket pistols). Just the name "small frame" does not, it seems, tell us precisely what is and is not allowed, does it?

 

"I knows one when I sees one" is not a very good standard, usually.

 

Good luck, GJ

[BJT]

Pale Wolf has already noted the 1849 frame is legal for main match so frame size is not an issue for the 1862.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"The .32 rimfire cartridge was chambered in revolvers and rifles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It was made primarily in short and long lengths, but extra short and extra long lengths were also offered.

 

The .32 Short fired a 80 grain lead bullet at 945 feet per second from a 24-inch rifle barrel."

 

To make pf 60, an 80 grain bullet must go 750fps. A 6 or 8 inch barrel could do that. Smokeless ammo has been made for the .32 rimfire short as well.

 

Sometimes reality is easier to accept than to obscure.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Believe that would be pretty limited as to ammunition availability (it's a .32 rimfire). And the valuation of the gun itself is pretty high. I would have to believe that it would be declared as not legal as a main match pistol due to the very small frame size and

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, that does not make the minimum power factor for main match revolvers, assuming you could even find that 1860 vintage ammo.

 

GJ

[BJT]

Where in the definition of main match revolver is frame size mentioned?

 

 

All this discussion does lead to questioning just what is the precise criteria for a "small frame" revolver. And what makes an 1849 or 1862 small enough to qualify as a small frame for pocket pistol and large enough to qualify as the minimum frame size normally cited as allowed in main match guns, the Model P Colt? We have perfectly acceptable "large frame" pocket pistols (at least, ones that H&R and IJ classified as their "large frame" pocket pistols). Just the name "small frame" does not, it seems, tell us precisely what is and is not allowed, does it?

 

"I knows one when I sees one" is not a very good standard, usually.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Really? Both the R&D and Kirst conversion cylinders I see listed for sale are .32 S&W caliber only. I was under the understanding that it would take about 1 CC of powder capacity to make enough smoke for that to pass main match requirements. .32 S&W (short) is able to do that?

 

In smokeless, it's probably likely that .32 S&W can reliably make 60 PF, as I find loads for it using 84 grain bullets at 800 FPS (67 PF). Which almost sounds like a 60 PF might be too low for main match use (hahah ooops, sorry to be goring someone's oxen).

 

Just what most folks want - a single action pocket pistol using a conversion cylinder that costs $200 on top of the pistol itself, just to get beat by some cheapo double action topbreak H&R or IJ in a side match.

 

Wow, it's amazing what discussions turn to when we're all snowed in (or natural gassed out, as we are in New Mexico now).

 

 

GJ

 

Another misconception. A converted CB pistol with a slick action shot slip-hammer style is very fast and actually more accurate because you don't use your grip hand to work the trigger.

[Bad Hand]

How do you get around this: Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main

match revolvers.

Pretty straight forward and doesn't mention barrel length.

[Griff]

Strange bunch of answers. And WHEN was the Ruger Montado, with its stippled backstrap and serrations on the front of the grip frame "Approved as a main match" gun? The hammer alone is approved. I do understand Ruger offers a similar piece that has smoothed backstrap and front of the grip frame. But that isn't the "Montado".

 

And in the FWIW category:

Shooter's Handbook page 12: Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

and from pg 17: A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model "P" Colts and clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers.

Although the Rugers are NOT clones, they are of similar frame size function and since the 1849 does qualify as a pocket pistol, if I were the MD I would uphold a protest on those bases.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Strange bunch of answers. And WHEN was the Ruger Montado, with its stippled backstrap and serrations on the front of the grip frame "Approved as a main match" gun? The hammer alone is approved. I do understand Ruger offers a similar piece that has smoothed backstrap and front of the grip frame. But that isn't the "Montado".

...

 

The Ruger Montado is a variation of the Vaquero.

It was approved as a "main match firearm" at the 2008 TG Summit in accordance with the procedures for handling a "Firearms Modification Consideration" (see SHB p.3) with the provision that the "grip enhancing" grooves be removed from the grip.

With that approval of the "Montado" (as a fixed sight main match revolver), the regs re: revolver hammers were amended in the SHB.

Prior to that, the only hammer swap allowed was to put a Super Blackhawk hammer on a Blackhawk. That was section was deleted and replaced with:

Ruger Super Blackhawk/Montado style revolver hammers (i.e. lowered and widened hammers) are acceptable on both adjustable and fixed sight model revolvers.

SHB p.4

...as the SBHK & Montado hammers are basically of the same configuration except for the style of checkering on the spur.