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H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

Making a Mare's Leg

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Before I actually do anything, I would plan to get something from the ATF in writing.

 

That being said, I figured there would be no harm in asking if anyone here is in the know.

 

If you take a pre-98 Winchester 92 and do the conversion, does that make an SBR, or would it be exempt since it's an antique?

 

I am assuming no exemption, but you never know unless you ask.

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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

 

 

I'm going to say no:

 

Determinants for Classification: Even though this weapon may exhibit a barrel shorter than 16 inches, it is subject to NFA regulations governing those dimensions because it employs a conventional ignition system and uses fixed ammunition that is readily available through ordinary channels of commercial trade. Consequently, this weapon would be classified as a “Short-barreled Rifle” and therefore all NFA regulations apply.

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The first thing the ATF person will ask is if the ammo is commonly sold today.

I would NOT risk it........

OLG

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz

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There are any number of good reproduction mare's legs available, no need to risk running afoul of the ATF by creating your own.

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Once you alter the antique Winchester 92 to an NFA configuration the gun is no longer considered to be an antique. So, you will need to file a form 4 before you do the conversion

As an FFL/SOT I have done it two ways. This one is a Ranch Hand originally sold as a handgun. It was form 4-ed to an Short-Barrel-Rifle SBR because it got a shoulder stock.

DSCN0130.thumb.JPG.1136c66c3f02f48bfe328b3173fc3446.JPG

 

This one was already a rifle with a 16" barrel. It was made into an SBR when the barrel was cut and threaded.

IMG_0875.thumb.JPG.aa2d2ccb54839ecbadd330c4e7fe8125.JPG

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57 minutes ago, Doc X said:

There are any number of good reproduction mare's legs available, no need to risk running afoul of the ATF by creating your own.

 

Ah, well there is the rub.   I am from Massachusetts.   Can't buy one here, as they are not approved for sale.   But, oddly enough, SBR's are not regulated in any way beyond NFA 34 rules.   Since using an antique does not seem to carry any kind of an exemption, it would probably be better for me to use a modern made replica.  

 

I do know that antique Winchesters with short barrels are exempt from NFA 34 if they came that way from the factory, but was unsure of the rules for shortening the barrel on an antique with a longer one.   

All a thought experiment at the moment anyway.   I have other gun projects higher on my to do list.

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Many years ago Marlin made some pretty interesting rifles.  Most were called bicycle rifles.  Many were takedown with 12-14" barrels. Some came with a canvas gun bag specifically to carry the broke down rifle on a bicycle frame.  Also some trapper models in 44WCF that were short and light.  They also had models with threaded barrel for silencer.  I suspect all of these are exempt due to being an original gun that was legal at the time - or some loophole like that. 

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4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Many years ago Marlin made some pretty interesting rifles.  Most were called bicycle rifles.  Many were takedown with 12-14" barrels. Some came with a canvas gun bag specifically to carry the broke down rifle on a bicycle frame.  Also some trapper models in 44WCF that were short and light.  They also had models with threaded barrel for silencer.  I suspect all of these are exempt due to being an original gun that was legal at the time - or some loophole like that. 

 

As things stand now, any SBR made prior to the passage of NFA '34 is exempt from its rules.  It's still a firearm according the GCA '68 and is C&R eligible.  Any pre-1898 SBR that came that way from the factory, is exempt from NFA '34 and GCA '68 cuz it's an antique.  This did not always used to be the case, but a few years ago they made this change.  You've got to be able to prove it came from the factory with the short barrel.   

On a related note, any pistol made prior to the end of World War II that has a shoulder stock is just considered a pistol, not an SBR.  If the shoulder stock feature is original to the gun.  So, a Browning Hi Power with a shoulder stock is not an SBR.   A Colt 1911A1 made in 1944 that you obtain a shoulder stock for, IS an SBR.

 

I have also seen that some smoothbore revolvers made prior to 1934 have also been removed from the control of NFA '34.    

If you can prove that these guns were made prior to the date, you can have them removed from NFA '34 jurisdiction by asking the ATF to do so.   They'll even send you a letter saying that they have been so removed.

And right after they changed the rules, a whole buncha stocked Broomhandles and Hi Powers and Lugers that had never been registered were suddenly to be found in gunshops all over the place...

 

I am not sure of the status of old silencers.  And that brings me back to my original question.  I was wondering if genuine antiques could be shortened or not without running afoul of NFA '34.   It looks like they can not be.   I thank folks for the links with the examples.  

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2 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

As things stand now, any SBR made prior to the passage of NFA '34 is exempt from its rules.  It's still a firearm according the GCA '68 and is C&R eligible.  Any pre-1898 SBR that came that way from the factory, is exempt from NFA '34 and GCA '68 cuz it's an antique.  This did not always used to be the case, but a few years ago they made this change.  You've got to be able to prove it came from the factory with the short barrel.   

On a related note, any pistol made prior to the end of World War II that has a shoulder stock is just considered a pistol, not an SBR.  If the shoulder stock feature is original to the gun.  So, a Browning Hi Power with a shoulder stock is not an SBR.   A Colt 1911A1 made in 1944 that you obtain a shoulder stock for, IS an SBR.

 

I have also seen that some smoothbore revolvers made prior to 1934 have also been removed from the control of NFA '34.    

If you can prove that these guns were made prior to the date, you can have them removed from NFA '34 jurisdiction by asking the ATF to do so.   They'll even send you a letter saying that they have been so removed.

And right after they changed the rules, a whole buncha stocked Broomhandles and Hi Powers and Lugers that had never been registered were suddenly to be found in gunshops all over the place...

 

I am not sure of the status of old silencers.  And that brings me back to my original question.  I was wondering if genuine antiques could be shortened or not without running afoul of NFA '34.   It looks like they can not be.   I thank folks for the links with the examples.  

NKJ is a FFL.

You would do well to listen to him.

Also, state laws come into play here.

OLG

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