A new acquisition..

[Aunt Jen]

Aunt Jen you do know that jane fonda was/is a traider don't you

Ok. I'm gonna see if I can respond to this a bit. I love this group, and I hope you all don't get angry with me, but I don't see the Jane Fonda bit like that. Let me try to share where I'm coming from, how I see it.

 

First of all, I was USN, a spook, (REMF at Ft. Meade), and most of my family was military. I was an Air Force brat as a child... I married a man who worked in the defense industry with aircraft, and one of the most proud things we could do was stand at attention during the singing of the Star Spangled Banner at a major air show, or visit our 5 relatives buried in Arlington Cemetery (including an admiral and two colonels), or commune with Lincoln on the steps of his magnificent monument. We love this country, and we're very patriotic. I was not a vietnam era vet because I missed it by a few months, owing to age, which is also not my fault, because I entered when I was 17, as did most of my family. (College on the GI Bill.)

 

Yes, I'm aware of the concern over Hanoi Jane and have always been. I was never in Viet Nam. I wasn't there. I'm a REMF, if that matters on this. But I'm willing to bet most here have never actually known Jane personally, nor did we go through her experiences with her that lead up to and included her Hanoi area trip.

 

I'm probably going to catch H E double nickels from some of you, but I will have to say that I see her differently. I'm not saying I agree with her (and I don't), but I don't think what she did was a treason. I do think part of the American Way is to be able to speak freely your opposing view, and even to campaign against a popular view, even against war when we're in one. I think she is and was a very liberal, very influential person because of her celebrity who didn't get the whole military orientation on such things. On the heels of a 60s peace movement and full of idealism, spit and vinegar, little to no education on the subject, with far too much time and ability to spend getting half-involved with things she didn't understand and with only a superficial and partial awareness of the consequences of her actions—I think she got in over her head with enthusiasm for her idealistic peace movement, and I have been thinking she got set up and used for at least part of it. Yes, I think she meant a lot of things she did. But also, I think there were some crafty people who were also involved, using her. I think that to think that everything that a star does is by her own design, and also often the idea that everything that comes out by her (even photos) is actually what she meant to happen is naive. Sorry, but it's true. Thousands of photos get taken. Sometimes millions of words are printed about a person. And what is the truth?

 

Small examples: I fly. I'm an ATP. Many times, I've heard stories of a downed plane, or a plane that did this or that, on reputable stations, which I KNOW are false or very wrong, because an airplane can't do what was reported. Me personally? I set an insignificant world record, once. It was nothing. Truly. But some LA Times reporter interviewed me 6 times about it before she put it in the paper. This was 20 years ago at least. During my flight, I landed/refueled 7 times over 28 hours, 36 minutes, 9 seconds. When she put it in the paper, complete with photo, she reported I flew nearly 24 hours without landing. What the h*** was that? Pure bone-head nonsense, a total impossibility.

 

Jane's NVC stuff was partially, I think, because she didn't know what she was talking about. I think she was gullible and she didn't even know it, idealistic. I think she was being fed bull sh**, and she didn't know it. I don't think she's a traitor; I think she's was naive, unaware, uneducated, yet very liberal and outspoken—however wrong. I think she was stupid, and I think she's tried to apologize.

 

How damaging can her kind of star power be when combined with ignorance, gullibility and a loud mouth? Very. How much can it hurt people over there dying in service to their country? Extremely. But that doesn't mean she's a traitor. It means she was stupid and idealistic.

 

Lord knows I've done some dumb things, and Lord knows I still do sometimes. And it seems like she may have meant the photos, etc., because of other anti-war things she's famous for. But that doesn't mean she meant it to be that way, nor even that she knew that was what was happening.

 

For what it's worth, and because others here will express their own views, here are her words on it, in her 2005 book:

 

"...It happened on my last day in Hanoi. I was exhausted and an emotional wreck after the 2-week visit ... The translator told me that the soldiers wanted to sing me a song. He translated as they sung. It was a song about the day 'Uncle Ho' declared their country's independence in Hanoi's Ba Dinh Square. I heard these words: "All men are created equal; they are given certain rights; among these are life, Liberty and Happiness." These are the words Ho pronounced at the historic ceremony. I began to cry and clap. These young men should not be our enemy. They celebrate the same words Americans do. The soldiers asked me to sing for them in return ... I memorized a song called Day Ma Di, written by anti-war South Vietnamese students. I knew I was slaughtering it, but everyone seemed delighted that I was making the attempt. I finished. Everyone was laughing and clapping, including me ... Here is my best, honest recollection of what happened: someone (I don't remember who) led me towards the gun, and I sat down, still laughing, still applauding. It all had nothing to do with where I was sitting. I hardly even thought about where I was sitting. The cameras flashed ... It is possible that it was a set up, that the Vietnamese had it all planned. I will never know. But if they did I can't blame them. The buck stops here. If I was used, I allowed it to happen ... a two-minute lapse of sanity that will haunt me forever ... But the photo exists, delivering its message regardless of what I was doing or feeling. I carry this heavy in my heart. I have apologized numerous times for any pain I may have caused servicemen and their families because of this photograph. It was never my intention to cause harm..."

[Subdeacon Joe]

Aunt Jen, Dear Lady, if Ms. Fonda had been some air headed teen or even early 20s, I could possibly understand her doing it. Not like it, but understand it. But she was 34 years old. Old enough to know that her visit would be used to discredit the US. Old enough to know that sitting on that AAA piece would be used as propaganda to give "aid and comfort" to the NVA and to try to demoralize US and allied troops. No one forced her to go to Hanoi. That was her own choice. There is a very good chance that her actions helped prolong that war and cost American lives.

 

Bui Tin, a former Col. in the NVA said:

 

"[The American anti-war movement] was essential to our strategy. Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us."

 

 

"The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win."

 

Of course, he also made the claim in the PBS series "American Experience" that no American POWs were ever tortured during their captivity.

[Dog Ears Wilson, SASS #77948]

BTW I do have a related flag.

At 4'x6'. It's way to big for my wall. I fly it on April 30th only. I'll be donating it to the local VFW post museum when it's completed.

 

I'm 45 and I recognized the VC flag right away. This one is a bit harder. I'm guessing it has something to do with the fall of Saigon.

 

You'll notice my crude attempt to steer the conversation away from JF.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I'm 45 and I recognized the VC flag right away. This one is a bit harder. I'm guessing it has something to do with the fall of Saigon.

 

You'll notice my crude attempt to steer the conversation away from JF.

 

It is the flag of the Republic of South Vietnam.

 

Thank you for the steerage. This ship is in danger of hitting the rocks.

[Bad Hand]

Aunt Jen, thank you for your service, one of the ideals that we all defend is the right to dissent, no matter how unpopular it is. I am no one of any importance, not a spook, nor have I ever set any records, except perhaps for the slowest stage time at Winter Range. I was just one of the guys in green who experienced the realities of war first hand, not via photographs or reports. To me that person is a traitor and only "apologized" when it was in her best financial interests.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Okay fellas, now can we get off the Ms Fonda tangent? The original post was simply to show a bit of military memorabilia.

 

Hi-jacking is a crime everywhere but here dang it. .

 

Perhaps I can entice you with a pic my collection of Mexican Punitive Expedition stuff and we can talk about that dirtbag Pancho Villa.

[Bad Hand]

Wasn't that the last use of Apache scouts?

[Utah Bob #35998]

Wasn't that the last use of Apache scouts?

 

That was their last use in combat. They were used for border duties in WWII as I recall.

Apache Scouts

[Subdeacon Joe]

Okay fellas, now can we get off the Ms Fonda tangent? The original post was simply to show a bit of military memorabilia.

 

Hi-jacking is a crime everywhere but here dang it. .

 

Perhaps I can entice you with a pic my collection of Mexican Punitive Expedition stuff and we can talk about that dirtbag Pancho Villa.

 

 

Saw a few of those on the older gentlemen in my dads VFW and American Legion posts when I was growing up. Not many though.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Aunt Jen, thank you for your service, one of the ideals that we all defend is the right to dissent, no matter how unpopular it is. I am no one of any importance, not a spook, nor have I ever set any records, except perhaps for the slowest stage time at Winter Range. I was just one of the guys in green who experienced the realities of war first hand, not via photographs or reports. To me that person is a traitor and only "apologized" when it was in her best financial interests.

 

I agree, no other way to put it.

It is what it is.

 

Back to the flag. Could that be the flag of Four Corners?

[Utah Bob #35998]

I agree, no other way to put it.

It is what it is.

 

Back to the flag. Could that be the flag of Four Corners?

 

Nah. We're so independent here we don't have a flag.

[El Peludo, SASS #3763L]

Ya can't wipe history off the face of the earth. That's why it's on my wall

 

Good memento, Bob. Kind'a sobers a feller down a bit, though; it did me, and I was too early to even be there.

 

Aunt Jen, you won't win this one, even a little bit.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

Our supply officer hired some women in Soc Trang to make Viet Cong flags. He would run over them with a jeep, slap a piece of liver against them, or shoot a hole in them with an M-14. Then he took them to Saigon and traded them to the REMFs for items that we needed but could not get because our priority was low (we were supporting the Vietnamese infantry, not American units). Buddy got a lot of good stuff for us with those flags.

 

Changing the subject just slightly: if memory serves me correct the sobrique "Viet Cong" was created by

President Diem as a derisive name for the National Liberation Front.

[Bad Hand]

Our supply officer hired some women in Soc Trang to make Viet Cong flags. He would run over them with a jeep, slap a piece of liver against them, or shoot a hole in them with an M-14. Then he took them to Saigon and traded them to the REMFs for items that we needed but could not get because our priority was low (we were supporting the Vietnamese infantry, not American units). Buddy got a lot of good stuff for us with those flags.

 

Changing the subject just slightly: if memory serves me correct the sobrique "Viet Cong" was created by

President Diem as a derisive name for the National Liberation Front.

 

They originally were the Viet Minh, fought the Japanese, with US support, during WWII, and then the French afterwards. I don't know when or why it was changed to Viet Cong.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Our supply officer hired some women in Soc Trang to make Viet Cong flags. He would run over them with a jeep, slap a piece of liver against them, or shoot a hole in them with an M-14. Then he took them to Saigon and traded them to the REMFs for items that we needed but could not get because our priority was low (we were supporting the Vietnamese infantry, not American units). Buddy got a lot of good stuff for us with those flags.

 

Changing the subject just slightly: if memory serves me correct the sobrique "Viet Cong" was created by

President Diem as a derisive name for the National Liberation Front.

 

Viet Cong was a shortening of Viet Nam Cong San which means Vietnamese Communists. Naturally if you're fighting a rebel army trying to overthrow your government, you don't want to call them a "Liberation Army". So they were just called Vietnamese communists, then Viet Cong, shortened to VC (among other things by the Americans.

The Viet Minh which were armed and assisted by the OSS in '44 were led by Ho Chi Minh and became the People's Army of Viet Nan after the defeat of the French and partitioning of the country.The Viet Cong was initially made up of a number of rebel groups who banded together to fight against the newly created South Vietnamese government run by that jackass Diem. There were former Viet Minh in the NLF but it wasn't the same organization.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Individual First Aid kit. Here's my original content sheet that was included with the First Aid pouch. Anyone remember them being issued in WW2 pouches? MT

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z72/marshaltroop/1967.jpg

Here's the card that was also inserted along with content sheet.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z72/marshaltroop/1967a.jpg

[Utah Bob #35998]

Individual First Aid kit. Here's my original content sheet that was included with the First Aid pouch. Anyone remember them being issued in WW2 pouches? MT

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z72/marshaltroop/1967.jpg

 

You got a kit?? All I had was a field dressing and salt tablets!

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

You got a kit?? All I had was a field dressing and salt tablets!

Field dressing? What did you do on patrol, make salads? :) MT

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Viet Cong was a shortening of Viet Nam Cong San which means Vietnamese Communists. Naturally if you're fighting a rebel army trying to overthrow your government, you don't want to call them a "Liberation Army". So they were just called Vietnamese communists, then Viet Cong, shortened to VC (among other things by the Americans.

The Viet Minh which were armed and assisted by the OSS in '44 were led by Ho Chi Minh and became the People's Army of Viet Nan after the defeat of the French and partitioning of the country.The Viet Cong was initially made up of a number of rebel groups who banded together to fight against the newly created South Vietnamese government run by that jackass Diem. There were former Viet Minh in the NLF but it wasn't the same organization.

Great little history here. MT

[Old Scatterbrain]

Field dressing? What did you do on patrol, make salads? :) MT

Says the guy with lipstick in his FAK?

 

By the way:

http://www.allmilitary.com/i/Image/fonda490.jpg

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Says the guy with lipstick in his FAK?

 

My secrets out. :) MT

[Utah Bob #35998]

My secrets out. :) MT

 

I thought they only gave lipstick to the Navy.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Utah, I've got some original P38s in original wrappers. If you need one PM me and I'll send you one for your collection, still in original package un-opened. MT

[Utah Bob #35998]

Utah, I've got some original P38s in original wrappers. If you need one PM me and I'll send you one for your collection, still in original package un-opened. MT

 

I have 10 I'm saving for a rainy day.

And if the stock market keeps going down I think it's gonna rain like hell!

 

Just to make sure, you're talking can opener not 9mm right?

[Guest Copper Mart]

...for the man/cave/gun room/militaria mini museum. Not a gun. I can't afford new guns.

 

A genuine National Liberation Front flag.

 

I "liberated" one of those from the local provincial intel platoon along with its' brother from the north back in '69. Made a nice wall decoration along with a crossed AK and a RPG7. Always wondered what happened to them after I left.

 

Mart...