Need load data for New Pocket Pistol

[Texita Draw SASS#77940]

I recently bought a pocket pistol and now I need a load recipe for it. I got a couple of boxes of factory ammo but would like to find a lighter load.

I currently use Clays and Trail Boss in everything I reload. I also have 90, 105, 125 and 158 gr bullet so I hope to use one of these.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Pass. Insufficient information to spend time on, sorry. The type of pocket pistol, model, year made, all are vitally important in figuring out what kind of loading yours will be safe with.

 

Maybe you could open the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and find something on your own?

 

good luck, GJ

[Texita Draw SASS#77940]

Don't waste your time next time replying to my posts. It's not worth your time or mine.

 

Pass. Insufficient information to spend time on, sorry. The type of pocket pistol, model, year made, all are vitally important in figuring out what kind of loading yours will be safe with.

 

Maybe you could open the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and find something on your own?

 

good luck, GJ

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Texita - these might give you a starting point ...

 

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20SqqqW&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/38sw.htm

 

So what kind of prize did you find?

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Say pard don't be so hard on ole GJoe -- he has a valid point. Another thing I would point out -- I bet all those bullets you listed that you have on hand are for 38 special are they not? 38 S&W is a whole 'nother biscuit. That's all I think I know on the subject. When you gonna get back up this way?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

The 38 S&W uses a little larger bullet - .361 but you can use the smaller 38 Special bullets, just don't expect great accuracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_S%26W

Hodgdon lists loads with HP-38 and Win 231 with 145 grain bullets. You could use similar charges with a 125 grain bullet, but check the velocities to be sure.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

Some of these were pre-1900 so only Balck powder should be used for those. Even guns made pre-1917 are often suspect.

Many 38 S&W revolvers were converted to 38 Special and still used the original barrels. Jack Ruby used such a converted revolver in a rather famous situation. I think accuracy would be adequate for a side match pistol, but you can test it to be sure.

 

Trail Boss would seem to be a good powder for this as well. I would recommend starting with a light load for the 38 Long Colt. Twould be a good idea to test velocities as well.

[Doc Windshadow]

Did the .38 Colt New Police (often shown as interchangeable withe the .38 S&W) start out with a heeled slug like .22 rimfire?

if so does any one make a mould for said heeled slug? and is there anything special about loading them? why were the popular for a time and why did they fall out of fashon except fo the small rimfire ammo?

 

Cheers

Windy

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

Pm sent

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

and is there anything special about loading them? why were the popular for a time and why did they fall out of fashon except fo the small rimfire ammo?

 

Howdy

 

Well for one thing, crimping a heeled bullet is very different than crimping a standard bullet. A standard die will not work since the bullet is the same diameter as the case.

 

Heeled bullets were the same diameter as the cartridge case. The 'heel' was a slightly smaller diameter section that fit inside the case, and the case was crimped on the heel to hold it in place. If you yank a 22RF bullet out with a pliers you will see what I am talking about.

 

Heeled bullets were created when percussion revolvers were being adapted to fire cartridges. Conversion cylinders for cartridges were developed for percussion revolvers by removing the rear portion of the cylinder where the nipples were. The front portion of a percussion cylinder remained unchanged. The chamber was bored through all one diameter, there was no step like there is for a modern bullet. That's just the way percussion chambers were. So the cartridge had to be all one diameter, both bullet and case in order for the bullet to fit the chamber properly.

 

The problem with heeled bullets was they carried the bullet lube on the outside, just like a 22RF bullet does. The lube was on the outside of the bullet so it would rub against the rifling as the bullet traveled down the barrel. You can peel off the waxy bullet lube of a modern 22RF with your fingernail. But in Black Powder days the bullet lube was softer. It would pick up dirt and contamination very easily. Loose cartridges in a drawer or in a pocket would pick up contamination that then was fired down the barrel.

 

About 1870 Smith & Wesson was making a large frame top break revolver that fired a 44 caliber, heeled bullet cartridge. The Russian government was very impressed with this revolver, and approached S&W about placing a large order for revolvers for the Czarist government. But the Russians stipulated they did not want a heeled bullet, because of the problems of lube contamination. So S&W changed the design of the cartridge to use a bullet with lube contained in grooves at the rear of the bullet. When the bullet was in place in the cartridge, the lube was concealed inside the cartridge case and would not pick up any contamination. This meant that the chamber design had to be altered. The rear of the chamber stayed at 44 caliber, but there was a step, narrowing the front portion of the chamber so that the bullet would be in contact with this 'throat' as it emerged from the case. And the rifling was shrunk down slightly, to fit the narrower bullet. The new cartridge was dubbed the 44 S&W Russian cartridge, and the new model revolver became known as the Russian revolver. At this point, the earlier 44 caliber heeled cartridge became known as the 44 S&W American cartridge, and its revolver started being called the American model.

 

Incidentally, this is why 44 caliber cartridges have bullets that are actually .429 or .427 in diameter and 38 caliber cartridges have bullets that are actually .357 in diameter. The bullets have shrunk in order to fit inside the cartridge.

[Doc Windshadow]

Thanks for the info Driftwood,

 

one of the best things about the Wire for me is all the wonderful history you can learn here...

 

So I guess the .38 CNP since it was a copy of the .38 S7W and so came after it must have been one of the last cartridges designed with a Heeled Slug?

 

Cheers

Windy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You know, I thought I remembered some good data in the Lyman Reloading Handbook, Ed 49. Here it is, and it sums up the situation pretty well.....

 

"We do not recommend the use of reloads in revolvers of the top break design due to their age and relative weakness."

 

I can see why, looking at the loads they are listing as the bottom starting load for 38 S&W. All of them for most bullet weights run 8500 psi and above. For starting loads.

 

If the OP has a black powder designed gun, it was built for something like about 6000 psi loads. OP still has not specified what gun he picked up.

 

Guess I will let Lyman speak for me; maybe that advice will set better.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Carlos El Hombre]

Just reload using BP or a sub. Misourri(sp?) bullet co. has .360 145 gr. bullets for a reasonable price. You will need to use a BP compatable lube OR 777 with smokeless lube will work well.

Carlos

[Texita Draw SASS#77940]

Thanks to everyone for the good info. I have been out of pocket for awhile, trying to help clear the North Texas roadways of all the ice and snow. Got to make sure everyone can make it to the Super Bowl.

The PP is an H A Seceret Service Pistol. Top break. I will try to post a pic.

Thanks again for the info and to those who sent PM's

 

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/dsbrown1434/CIMG0632.jpg

[Wolfgang, SASS #53480]

I just bought myself a "pocket pistol" . . . a .44 cal. Bull-Dog, . . and I figure to just use soft lead round balls and black powder. Don't have the pistol in hand yet. I'll post on how that load works in due course.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

OK ,if you had given us that info about what type of revolver you had found, we could have identified it, found that it most likely IS a smokeless frame gun made by Hopkins and Allen, and might even, with a serial number (found under the grips) been able to date it for you too.

 

These H&A "Secret Service Special" top breaks, were designed for the factory-pressure of the .38 S&W smokeless load. So, you can probably be safe, if the gun is tight, shooting loads such as the starting loads in the Lyman Reloading Handbook, even with their warnings ringing in our ears. Although they carry a fancy name, they were essentially a lower-end gun commissioned and distributed by the Fred Biffar Co. of Chicago in the late 1910s and 1920s.

 

Here's a post on another forum by Bill Goforth, a REAL expert on these types of top break revolvers. Hope you can sort out something of value from it.

 

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=3338

 

Good luck, and be safe! GJ