Three Foot Johnson Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: OK, everybody take a step back from the computers. Here is a photo of my 38-40 Lee Factory Crimp die. It is mounted in one of my Hornady Lock and Load collets. You can clearly see the slit in the side. There are four of them, equally spaced around the circumference. The last date I have on a box of 38-40 ammo is 2016, so that is probably about when I bought this die. Here is a view from the top. Not quite so clear, but one of the slits can clearly be seen.I have been using my 44-40 LFC die for probably close to 20 years. No, I am not going to take a photo of it, there is so much BP bullet lube gunked in it that you could not see the slits anyway. It's late and I just finished loading a batch of 44-40s and I am not about to clean it out right now. And I certainly am not going to take it apart for a close photo, I have been using that die for a long time and don't want to reset it. You are just going to have to take my word for it that both of my Lee Factory Crimp Dies have the slits between the fingers or the business part of the die. I could have written that - my .44-40 FCD is too gunked up to see the slits clearly, and for the same reasons, I'm sure not going to unscrew either of them and take them apart. I'll guess I've had the .44-40 for fifteen years or so, and the .38-40 for a little less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Quote OP - Taper Crimp or Factory Crimp? I don't really know what crimp the Redding Profile Crimp performs but it could almost be a taper crimp with a slight roll. Mine was gunked up too but I took the time to remove and clean it to try to clarify/help for a fellow shooter that ended up to just want to argue....I won't ever do that again. Total and complete waste of time. Thanks Driftwood/Three Foot Johnson for helping to explain that they (at least ours) did come with a slotted collet. I actually went to the range this morning and shot 6.4gr of trail boss with both the 43-214A (Redding Roll Crimp) and Origon Trail's "Lazer Cast" Magma design using the RCBS "Cowboy Roll Crimp. Nothing to do with CAS targets unless you want to shoot side stages or something.....but...... Both Averaged high 960 fps velocities. Accuracy due to any type crimp used can not be proven with this comparison but the results are obvious. also included (right targets) are last weeks shots. Targets - 100 Yards Bullets - 217gr 43-214A and 200gr "Magma" design Powder - 6.4gr Trail Boss Brass - Starline (Once Fired) Primers - CCI 300 4" Circle - Applied after the shots I used desk calendars. I used tack pins to pin blue bottle caps to the top, bottom left and right to align scope cross hairs. center target represented by the letters "POA" Cartridges loaded using an RCBS Green Machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 I gotta tell you Jack, you are the man when it comes to 44-40. I considered myself fairly knowledgeable about it, but I have not done half the work you have. I just load it up with the Mav-Dutchaman bullet over a charge of Schuetzen FFG. I have not tried half the things you have tried. I did used to load it with Unique a bazillion years ago, that is my total experience with 44-40 in Smokeless. Then again, I don't have the eyesight you do, so I don't even try hitting anything beyond 20 yards or so with it out of my Henry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 With the four targets glued into one photo, it's hard to read all the labels on your targets that you posted, but it seems you used the Accurate 214 grain bullet you designed and the Redding Profile Crimp die on the top row, and the 200 grain Oregon Trail RNFP (?) with RCBS Cowboy roll crimp die on the bottom row, right? Well, a more informational test would keep the same crimp and vary the bullet, or same bullet and use different crimp dies, but generally you are getting better accuracy (maybe 10-15% tighter groups) with the Accurate 214 grain bullet and profile crimp. When repeated with several guns, it could become statistically significant. But, you may have a pretty good combination going with that load. My .45 Colt loads will normally hold about a 3" (ten shot) group on paper at 100 yards with my old 20" barrel Uberti 73, if you want a comparison. I found better accuracy with the Redding profile crimp die in my .44-40 black powder loads, as well. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 45 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: I gotta tell you Jack, you are the man when it comes to 44-40. I considered myself fairly knowledgeable about it, but I have not done half the work you have. I just load it up with the Mav-Dutchaman bullet over a charge of Schuetzen FFG. I have not tried half the things you have tried. I did used to load it with Unique a bazillion years ago, that is my total experience with 44-40 in Smokeless. Then again, I don't have the eyesight you do, so I don't even try hitting anything beyond 20 yards or so with it out of my Henry. LOL, Thanks Driftwood, means a lot coming from you! However...eyesight...that's why I have a scope on everything. Just "machined" drilled out an NOE "M" die adapter to insert/replace into the Lee powder through die. I had to wear TWO pare of reading glasses.... Left - Lyman "M die plug Center - Lee Powder Through plug Right - NOE's Lee powder through plug adapter I thought it would already be machined since it was a direct replacement but what the heck to I know!!! http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=565_89&products_id=1133 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 51 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: With the four targets glued into one photo, it's hard to read all the labels on your targets that you posted, but it seems you used the Accurate 214 grain bullet you designed and the Redding Profile Crimp die on the top row, and the 200 grain Oregon Trail RNFP (?) with RCBS Cowboy roll crimp die on the bottom row, right? Well, a more informational test would keep the same crimp and vary the bullet, or same bullet and use different crimp dies, but generally you are getting better accuracy (maybe 10-15% tighter groups) with the Accurate 214 grain bullet and profile crimp. When repeated with several guns, it could become statistically significant. But, you may have a pretty good combination going with that load. My .45 Colt loads will normally hold about a 3" (ten shot) group on paper at 100 yards with my old 20" barrel Uberti 73, if you want a comparison. I found better accuracy with the Redding profile crimp die in my .44-40 black powder loads, as well. Good luck, GJ The two targets on the left...TOP - 43-214A, Bottom - Magma The targets on right...week before same loads as above. Been testing for ten years but the 44-40 is so multi-facited folks forget what dies to use with what bullets. I have different loads for different rifles - Marlin 1894CB, Uberti 1873' and Marlin 1889 manufactured in 1891. How about hitting golfballs at 265 yards with the 44-40? Took a few shots but all placed within 4" - 6" @ 265 yards.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4exkGBF_yq0 My Youtube Channelhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYun1sOP_i62Xg05tbtGVsA?view_as=public 44 Winchester Centerfire Website: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said: I have different loads for different rifles - Marlin 1894CB, Uberti 1873' and Marlin 1889 manufactured in 1891. I'm trying to keep things simple. One load for five rifles and one revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: I'm trying to keep things simple. One load for five rifles and one revolver. Life would be much better that way!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Which crimp to use is based on the differences between using 44-40, 44 special and 44 magnum "profile" bullets. The LFCD is a "bandaide" for crimping non-standard 44-40 bullets or can be used on 44/44-40 bullets with no crimp grooves. Here is a photo of the classic Roll Crimp "bulge". Can be more prominent with larger diameter bullets greater than .427/8 Although most shooters don't notice this "bulge" it can be just enough to not want to chamber in tight revolver chambers. Same with rifles BUT because of the leverage using the action to cycle the cartridge into the chamber, resistance is seldom felt or is ignored. Winchester brass is the thinnest, followed by Starline and then the thicker Remington brass. Remington brass eliminates this problem but because it is thicker, the problem re-arises due to the thicker diameter brass on top of larger diameter bullets...again another chambering problem issue. To remedy this bulge problem, replace the crimp step with or follow the roll crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die when using non 44-40 profile bullets like the Oregon Trail's "Magma" deign bullets with an exposed driving bad ("Magma" bullet in photo). However, when using over sized diameter bullets with a 44-40 LFCD, expect crimp "marks" in the form of radius marks and small vertical "bulges" due to the LFCD crimping the case mouth before the slits in the collet are fully closed. As was already previously mentioned, if you use a Redding 44-40 profile crimp with this design bullet BEST NOT TO), you will remedy the problem as well BUT you "deform" the forward driving band by squeezing it into a shallow "concave" "curve" "cold forming" the forward driving band as the crimp is formed. Sometimes due to the harsh cold forged crimp force from using a 44-40 "profile" crimp on a non 44-40 profile bullet...the Redding crimp die will actually pull the bullet out of the case when the press lever is released because the crimp die "sticks" to the exposed forward driving band. Can still work, just explaining the "behind the scenes" activities. To properly remedy tight chamber problems due to the "roll crimp bulge"... 1. Use an LFCD on non-standard 44-40 bullets with or without crimp grooves.. 2. Use a Redding Profile Crimp die on 44-40 profile bullets (with or without crimp grooves). Super imposed, (holding) a Lyman 42499 HP Ogive bullet over top Magma bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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