44-40 taper crimp or factory crimp?

[Stopsign32v]

Which one do you guys suggest and why? I use factory crimp on all my 45 Colt but don't know if that is the route to go with the more fragile 44-40. 

[Yul Lose]

I’ve tried both and like the Lee factory crimp better.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

For 44-40, I actually prefer the redding profile crimp die over the lee die. I don't find the case to be overly fragile, but I think the redding die does a slightly better job of crimping into the bullet grove and making a nicer more uniformed round.

[Stopsign32v]

1 minute ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

For 44-40, I actually prefer the redding profile crimp die over the lee die. I don't find the case to be overly fragile, but I think the redding die does a slightly better job of crimping into the bullet grove and making a nicer more uniformed round.

 

Could you post up a picture to show? $29 for one die...yikes 

[Yul Lose]

2 minutes ago, Stopsign32v said:

 

Could you post up a picture to show? $29 for one die...yikes 

I’ll send you one for $20.00 shipped.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

4 minutes ago, Stopsign32v said:

 

Could you post up a picture to show? $29 for one die...yikes 

A picture of what? The die or a finished round? I can't do either until later tonight, but I'd take Yul up on that offer. Well worth it.

[Stopsign32v]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

A picture of what? The die or a finished round? I can't do either until later tonight, but I'd take Yul up on that offer. Well worth it.

 

Finished round 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I would never use a taper crimp on .44-40.   It REALLY needs a firm, roll crimp with smokeless.  This is a thin wall case, and taper crimping will not provide hardly ANY resistance to collapsing the bullet into the case.  Black powder loads filling the case won't collapse, but could release the bullet if you have a good amount of compression of the powder, letting it creep out to a longer than desired length.

 

I too use a Redding profile crimp die, because I find it holds the bullet more firmly than the Lee Factory Crimp die does.  For the .44-40 or .38-40, that Redding die is worth it's price tag in making a round that always chambers and is consistent in performance.

 

You pay good money to go to matches, and then complain about buying a really good die for use on a cartridge that really needs a good crimp?   Hmmph.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I've loaded many thousands of rounds with that $29 die.

It is worth it.

--Dawg

[Stopsign32v]

Well you guys are a convincing bunch. And I guess when it comes to 44-40 you all would be the experts. 

 

Enough said, Redding die it is. 

[Marshal Hangtree]

37 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

For 44-40, I actually prefer the redding profile crimp die over the lee die. I don't find the case to be overly fragile, but I think the redding die does a slightly better job of crimping into the bullet grove and making a nicer more uniformed round.

 

Exactly my findings, Hombre.  I've never had a problem using a Redding profile crimp for my .44-40.  I also use the Redding profile crimp on my .45CS handgun loads.  Perfect crimp every time.

[Warden Callaway]

I use an RCBS Cowboy dies and apply a roll crimp.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I’ve tried both and like the Lee factory crimp better.

Plus  1

Just sayin .

Rooster 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

59 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

I use an RCBS Cowboy dies and apply a roll crimp.

I did that for many years. Once I switched from a single stage press to a turret, I used that extra hole for a crimp die and turned out to be much more effective. No extra time added and there is a lot less adjustments throughout loading needed.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Stopsign32v said:

Well you guys are a convincing bunch. And I guess when it comes to 44-40 you all would be the experts. 

 

Enough said, Redding die it is. 

 

I have loaded .44WCF with the LEE FCD and Redding.

Way better crimp with the LEE........

FWIW-I really like the LEE FCD

OLG

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I would never use a taper crimp on .44-40.   It REALLY needs a firm, roll crimp with smokeless.  This is a thin wall case, and taper crimping will not provide hardly ANY resistance to collapsing the bullet into the case.  Black powder loads filling the case won't collapse, but could release the bullet if you have a good amount of compression of the powder, letting it creep out to a longer than desired length.

 

I too use a Redding profile crimp die, because I find it holds the bullet more firmly than the Lee Factory Crimp die does.  For the .44-40 or .38-40, that Redding die is worth it's price tag in making a round that always chambers and is consistent in performance.

 

You pay good money to go to matches, and then complain about buying a really good die for use on a cartridge that really needs a good crimp?   Hmmph.

 

Good luck, GJ

Thanks for that info GJ..BP I have no problems but smokeless is a different story, I will have to track down a redding die.Just priced one in Australia...   $58AU

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

I have loaded .44WCF with the LEE FCD and Redding.

Way better crimp with the LEE........

FWIW-I really like the LEE FCD

OLG

But everyone knows that you are the odd ball of the bunch and like to do things wrong...er differently

[Yul Lose]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

But everyone knows that you are the odd ball of the bunch and like to do things wrong...er differently

He looks kinda odd too..

[Savvy Jack]

If the bullet has a roll crimp groove, I use a roll crimp because it is proper for lead bullets with a roll crimp groove. (Magma Bullet)
If the soft lead bullet does not have a crimp groove, I use a Redding Profile Crimp (Lyman 427098)

If I use a Winchester JSP, I use the Redding profile crimp....because that's what is was designed for.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die leaves deformities that can weaken the case mouth....but not for those mouse farts

The 44-40 Redding die will not work on bullets with a forward driving band (i.e..428 - .430)

The 44-40 cartridge is the most multi-faceted cartridge out there.

 

The list goes on and one but thats the gest of it!!

[Warden Callaway]

Original post didn't specify loading for pistol or rifle.  Pistol could probably get by with any crimp.  But a tube feed rifle needs a good crimp to keep the bullet from turtling.  

[Yul Lose]

1 minute ago, Warden Callaway said:

Original post didn't specify loading for pistol or rifle.  Pistol could probably get by with any crimp.  But a tube feed rifle needs a good crimp to keep the bullet from turtling.  

Yep.

[Bull Skinner]

I use a standard set of Lee dies and crimp and seat with the single seating/crimping die provided for same. I do as Driftwood Johnson does. I seat the bullet with about a 1/16th” of crimp groove above case mouth so that any variation in case length doesn’t cause crumpling of case mouth. Been doing this since 2001 when I bought my first of  three 44-40 rifles. 

I purchased a Lee FC die but after using it I went back to afore mentioned method as the extra step on my turret press seamed to be wasted effort.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

8 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I’ll send you one for $20.00 shipped.

Thanks Yul ...[ tongue in cheek ] for that price shipped to Aussie I'II take it !!! 

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

17 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Original post didn't specify loading for pistol or rifle.  Pistol could probably get by with any crimp.  But a tube feed rifle needs a good crimp to keep the bullet from turtling.  

Unless you're shooting a full case of bp as God intended the .44-40 to be loaded!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

On 7/1/2019 at 9:45 PM, Bull Skinner said:

I do as Driftwood Johnson does. I seat the bullet with about a 1/16th” of crimp groove above case mouth so that any variation in case length doesn’t cause crumpling of case mouth.

 

Somebody is misquoting me.

 

I don't leave 1/16" between the underside of the crimp groove and the end of the case. More like just a few thousandths.

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the original question, clearly a taper crimp is not an option. Taper crimps are for cartridges that head space on the case mouth, such as 9mm or 45ACP. A taper crimp is used with bullets without a crimp groove, usually with FMJ bullets. The taper crimp tapers, as the name implies, against the bullet, leaving about 1/2 of the thickness of the brass standing proud to provide a surface for the cartridge to head space against.

 

Here the choice is between a roll crimp or some sort of crimping die such as the Lee FCD or the Redding one.

 

Before I started shooting Black Powder I loaded 44-40 with conventional hard cast bullets. Believe it or not I used to crimp and seat the bullet in one step, no different than with any other cartridge. The photo above is an illustration of that. That is a typical hard cast bullet that has been crimped with a conventional seating/crimp die, accomplished by seating the bullet and crimping at the same time. Just the way the instructions tell us to do.

 

 

 

 

It was only later, when I began loading with Black Powder and Big Lube bullets that I started using the crutch, yes crutch, of seating bullets separately and crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. The reason is that there is so much lube in the lube groove of a Big Lube bullet that inevitably some of the lube gets scraped up into the crimp groove. When I tried crimping with a standard die set, the crimping constriction in the seating/crimp die did not always squeeze all the misplaced bullet lube out of the crimp groove, resulting in bulging, problematic crimps. I started using the Lee FCD because it squeezes the crimp concentrically. This provided more force and any errant bullet lube was squeezed out of the crimp groove by the Lee FCD.

 

Here's the thing. The brass at the neck of a 44-40 round is very thin. Only about .007 thick, as compared to the brass at the neck of many other cartridges, such as 45 Colt, which usually runs around .012 thick. That thin brass is very flexible. With brass that thin, if the crimp groove is not well defined, the crimp will smoosh into the shape of the crimp groove and will take on whatever the underlying shape of the crimp groove is. That is what this photo shows, the smooshed in crimps on a 44 Mav Dutchman Big Lube bullet with 44-40 brass.

 

 

 

 

 

I only use one bullet for both 44-40 and 44 Russian these days, the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman 200 grain bullet. Here is the bullet with and without lube and how it looks seated in a 44 Russian and 44 -40 case. If you look carefully, you will see the crimp in the .012 thck 44 Russian brass forms a roll crimp, while the crimp in the 44-40 forms a smooshed crimp.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't worry about bullets setting back in my 44-40 rifles because they are full of a slug of solid Black Powder which prevents the bullet from setting back when slammed by the follower every time a bullet is stripped out of the magazine. I only have a couple of 44-40 revolvers, and there is no problem with bullets moving. My 44 Russian rounds, like my 45 Colt rounds, are only fired in revolvers, and there is no follower to slam into a column of bullets.

 

 

 

Why don't I try the Redding die? Because I have been doing it this way for so long that I don't need to experiment with another die. The FCD die works fine with my BP 44-40 and my BP 38-40 loads. Every other BP cartridge I load, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 44 Russian, I seat and crimp in one step because the thicker brass forms a nice roll crimp.

[Bull Skinner]

First off  Mr. Johnson I didn’t quote you. I gave you credit for a loading technique I use, that’s not the same thing.

 

Believe me sir, I won’t make that mistake again. 

[McCandless]

I pulled the firing pin out of my .38-40 '73 over the winter and ran through my stock of smokeless .38WCF rounds, (the bullets had a crimp groove), that I had made up previously with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  Roughly half of them collapsed in the magazine tube.   Did a lot cartridge deconstructing after that. 

Purchased a Redding Profile Die and remade the cartridges.  Ran them through the rifle.  No collapsed rounds.  I'm sold.  It works for me, so I'm going to keep doing it.

 

 

[Warden Callaway]

I started loading 44WCF with 430 diameter bullets because I had a large inventory of them and they worked fine in my Smoke Wagons and rifles. I loaded on the Dillon 550b with a powder check die in station 3.  I only seated in station 4.  Then I used the Lee FCD in a small Lee C press to crimp.  Then Sawmill Mary gets a pair of older Smoke Wagons that wouldn't chamber 430 bullets.  So we phased into 427 for everything because 427 would work fine in every 44WCF we had.  But the Lee FCD wasn't doing its job on the smaller bullets. But I got a set of RCBS Cowboy dies and could get a good, consistent seat and roll crimp in the 4th station.  

 

I use the Lee FCD when loading the 38WCF rounds because I use a bullet cast from a Lee 6 cavity mold that is designed for the 40S&W that has no crimp groove. It has been working ok.  I load so few that I just use the little C press anyway.  I load BlackMZ so I don't even lube the bullets.  

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

12 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

First off  Mr. Johnson I didn’t quote you. I gave you credit for a loading technique I use, that’s not the same thing.

 

Believe me sir, I won’t make that mistake again. 

 

Sorry, I did not mean to come off like a jerk. I was referring to the 1/16" dimension. Maybe I misunderstood you. I should have added a smiley face to my statement. Hope you will not hold it against me.

 

Regarding bullets telescoping in when slammed by the follower in a rifle magazine, yes the crimps I make with the Lee Factory Crimp Die are not very strong. Sometimes I make up some dummy 44-40 rounds without primers or powder to check for function. I can generally only cycle them through a rifle once or twice before the bullets start to telescope into the case. Not a problem with my BP rounds, but if I ever decide to make up some Smokeless rounds again, maybe I will look into the Redding die.

 

Pretty much all my 44-40s are for rifles. The only 44-40 revolver I have that gets shot is an antique Merwin Hulbert. So far, so good, I have not noticed bullets creeping out from recoil.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

9 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I started loading 44WCF with 430 diameter bullets because I had a large inventory of them and they worked fine in my Smoke Wagons and rifles. I loaded on the Dillon 550b with a powder check die in station 3.  I only seated in station 4.  Then I used the Lee FCD in a small Lee C press to crimp.  Then Sawmill Mary gets a pair of older Smoke Wagons that wouldn't chamber 430 bullets.  So we phased into 427 for everything because 427 would work fine in every 44WCF we had.  But the Lee FCD wasn't doing its job on the smaller bullets. But I got a set of RCBS Cowboy dies and could get a good, consistent seat and roll crimp in the 4th station.  

 

I use the Lee FCD when loading the 38WCF rounds because I use a bullet cast from a Lee 6 cavity mold that is designed for the 40S&W that has no crimp groove. It has been working ok.  I load so few that I just use the little C press anyway.  I load BlackMZ so I don't even lube the bullets.  

 

That is interesting regarding the crimp dies and the bullet size. My Miroku Winchester has a .427 groove diameter, so I have always used .428 bullets. Perhaps the FCD works fine for .430 bullets. It just didn't work as well as the Redding die does for mine.

[Stopsign32v]

So does this look right for a Redding profile crimp? I called Redding and CS told me to run an EMPTY case up and screw down the die until it contacts then adjust it to my like. I asked for clarification of EMPTY case and they said yes. I did that and ruined a case. Kinda mad about that.

 

Then I tried it with a finished case and came up with this. Does this look right?

 

[Warden Callaway]

16 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

That is interesting regarding the crimp dies and the bullet size. My Miroku Winchester has a .427 groove diameter, so I have always used .428 bullets. Perhaps the FCD works fine for .430 bullets. It just didn't work as well as the Redding die does for mine.

 

Well, I stopped using the Lee FCD on 44WCF whin I startled using 427 bullets.   I'm only using it for loading 38WCF with bullets with no crimping groove. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

One should seat and crimp in two separate operations, for the best results.

OLG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

Does this look right?

 

Yep, about like mine do.  The mouth is crimped in under the ogive of the bullet nose, so the bullet cannot collapse.  The neck appears tight.    

 

One manual test is hold the loaded round in your hand, nose forward.  Push the round hard against a solid wooden surface (garage door jamb will work in a pinch).  If bullet does not collapse into case, that's good.  

 

Two, Twist hard on loaded slug with your fingers.  If it does not twist, that is super good (shows a tight neck as well as a good crimp). 

 

Three, I then try to "pull" the bullet with my hammer-type impact bullet puller.   If it takes a couple three good whacks to pop the bullet loose, the crimp is providing great resistance to "bullet pull."

 

More importantly, though, does it chamber well, and does it fire with 100% reliability in your gun(s)?

 

Quote

Ruined an empty case..... (while setting up the die)

 

How is it ruined?  Run the case through the expander die and then the full die set, and most "crimping" dings will straighten right out.  

 

Any way, you are talking about a single case, maybe 30 cents new.   Keep the end goal in sight and don't get distracted by the nits. 

 

Sounds like after you just made contact using an empty case, you continued trying to adjust the crimp tighter using that same empty case.   That would probably result in you putting a big ding or wrinkle  in the mouth.   After initial contact, then you can seat a slug to correct depth in a case (this could be either empty, or primed and charged with powder), and then run the seated round up and adjust your Profile Crimp Die to give you the desired amount of crimp.   Don't expect the profile crimp die to seat a bullet - it won't do it well.

 

The reason the rep told you to set first-contact position with an empty case - if you have a bullet seated in the case, the bullet may touch before you get the crimp section touching the mouth of the case.   That will mean you are trying to adjust the crimp while not yet touching the case - leading to frustration.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Stopsign32v said:

So does this look right for a Redding profile crimp? I called Redding and CS told me to run an EMPTY case up and screw down the die until it contacts then adjust it to my like. I asked for clarification of EMPTY case and they said yes. I did that and ruined a case. Kinda mad about that.

 

Then I tried it with a finished case and came up with this. Does this look right?

 

 

Looks great-

Load up 50 rnds for a range test.

OLG