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44-40 taper crimp or factory crimp?


Stopsign32v

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28 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

Most of my split cases resulted just like this one. Cause...hard crimp with LFCD. The LFCD leaves these "humps" in the crimp due to the cut outs in the die body. The "hump" itself is not the problem. The problem is the sharp edge that it leaves on each side of the crimp. Certainly depends on how hard the crimp is applied.

This case was reloaded but this time using the Redding Profile crimp die. The Redding die will not even flatten out the sharpe edges which shows the evident, basically permanent damage. This is why I switched to the Redding Profile die where applicable. These are WW cases (old enough) and reloaded many times using only 6.4gr of trailboss. 6.4gr of Trail Boss gave me consistent 7,000psi pressures unlike my Starline case test loads of 9.3gr (caseload no compression) that produce over 15,000psi.   WARNING: SAAMI MAX 11,000psi

 

66698488_1214865565360691_1700307548814442496_n.jpg

 

None of my LFCD's leave a ridge mark like that. Maybe you should contact Lee about your die. :huh:

Case mouth splitting is caused by the work hardening of the case mouth, from repeated firings and reloading cycles.

OLG

 

 

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18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

None of my LFCD's leave a ridge mark like that. Maybe you should contact Lee about your die. :huh:

Case mouth splitting is caused by the work hardening of the case mouth, from repeated firings and reloading cycles.

OLG

 

 

I use many different methods of loading the 44-40. 99% of my splits are from using the LFCD, old brass new brass etc. Once again, my observations. These are old WW cases that have been reloaded many many times but only the cases that have been used with the LFCD have split. The photo shows the obvious, the weak point is the crease.
I have old unheadtsamped semi-balloonhead case that I keep guarded in a vault and will not let the LFCD even flirt with them from a distance, snail mail or any other form of contact!

I have had NO splits from the Redding Profile Crimp or the RCBS roll crimp method. I had one split from the lyman 310 and NO splits from my 18,000 - 21,000 psi high velocity loads that I have reloaded several dozens of times.

Brass won't last forever, I spent the better part of 16 years working in aircraft sheet-metal fabrication....work hardining...I am all so familiar with.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

More Redding Profile Crimp,
A few weeks ago I submitted a bullet mold design to Tom over at Accurate Molds. he entered it into the system and came out with the 43-214A. I basically took the nose of the (John Kort's) 43-215C (minus the crimp groove) and the body of the Lyman 427098 and squished them together. This also replicates early Winchester 1870's brass bullet molds. What I added was a larger Ogive than the 427098 but small enough not to hit the rifling when chambered in my Marlin 1889 manufactured in 1891...see previous posts in this topic. The bullet is a little longer than the Winchester JSP but seats the same depth. This design retains the true 44-40 ogive profile thus I use the Redding 44-40 Profile crimp die. The bullet is seated flush with the top of the forward driving band, just shy of the Ogive. Case resizing is a must followed by a good Redding profile crimp, sufficient for not telescoping into the case from rifle mag-tube spring force. Scope is sited in for a Trailboss load and I plan to zero it in for this load. I decided to send my mold to a caster on this forum to get better quality casts. I have good cast and bad cast bullets but they are all poor quality casts...lol If mine grouped 4" at 100 yards, can't wait to see what his do!!

Loaded up with 25gr of Reloder 7, 10 shot groups gave me 4" @ 100 yards using my Uberti Winchester 73' with Malcolm scope.

 

 

43-214A-D.png

275ac7b5-0b03-45ed-8fc5-aa9800244a22_66730668-1219749351538979-7689790849273561088-n.jpg

67154148_1219755828204998_3815741399232413696_n.jpg

Center cartridge is new brass with a profile crimp. Others have been crimped at one time with a LFCD

 

 

 

e5a9b84d-950a-42c6-aac9-aa98002551a4_65223899-1206380219542559-83112831267897344-n.jpg

4905c2b4-bc11-4b9a-870f-aa980025eeaa_67775075-1227323754114872-8853713495997284352-n.jpg

Untitled.png

Early brass Winchester mold.

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Sure looks to me, like it wouldn't take much to push 43-214A bullet into the case.

I would think the 43-215C(far right)would be the ideal one with a dedicated crimp grove.

OLG

 

With a proper case resize and profile crimp it will not, I have tried in ten million times.....as well as with the original designed bullets. Another reason this bullet is .428 rather than .425.....427 or smaller

One problem I have with the 43-215C is the crimp over and down into the crimp grove pending bullet diameter. The 44-40 case mouth is so thin, when crimped like this the radius of the crimp pushes out and will not chamber in tight chambers. This has to be followed by a Redding Profile crimp to knock that radius bulge back down. I will add a photo of the bulge later.

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I'd be interested to see what is going to happen to that bullet out to 250 yards after you get it zeroed at 100.  Not that you are likely hunting with this round.  We're on page 3 here so I've totally forgotten what this thread is actually about, and I really need to get back to work.

 

:blush:

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3 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

Resizing the case to original die dimensions or "Cowboy" die dimensions, the case plus the "proper" Redding profile crimp gives sufficient retention.

 

When you pull your new bullet-Can you see a 'line' from the case-mouth embedded into the bullet?

OLG

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

When you pull your new bullet-Can you see a 'line' from the case-mouth embedded into the bullet?

OLG

Thought shalt never doubt me Grasshopper!!!

The Redding profile die does lots more than form it's own "crimp" groove...it crimps the whole bloody "profile". I will get photos for you

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Starline Brass

.005 case mouth thickness

 

Just for kicks I added the 43-208A bullet profile I also submitted a while back. I gave it a .002 heeled design as well as shallow crimp for those firearms with tight chambers and larger bored >.428 barrels. The heel allows an almost thumb pressure seating of the bullet followed by a shallow crimp when using modern loading tools. The Heeled "stop" prevents the bullet from telescoping under the pressure of the mag-tube spring load. The 208 was designed for caseloads of Reloder 7 and black powder to where the bullet sits firmly on top of the powder but can be used with smokeless pistol powders.  

The 43-214A was designed to be used specifically with the Redding Profile crimp which forms the "tapered like" crimp as well as smooths out any bulges around the crimp radius. The crimp "radius bulges" are more prominent on bullets with actual crimp grooves. Like I said earlier somewhere in here....When I use a roll crimp, I follow it with the Redding die to knock down that radius bulge.....WHICH I felt was the OP's original problem. Here is your crimp "line" which is the thickness of the case at the case mouth

67618028_1231029147077666_6265527011851108352_n.jpg

67395387_1231029047077676_128136050013896704_n.jpg

67804472_1231029057077675_7293649922321022976_n.jpg

67553192_1231029110411003_5017004732145729536_n.jpg

43-208A-D.png

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After dissecting several early 44 WCF cartridges and studying the bullets, I notice such shallow grooves in the early swaged bullets. Sure, they sat on top of a caseload of black powder BUT I feel the problem with telescoping started with the smokeless powders and the JSP bullets...not lead. I have had numerous problems with the small diameter .4255 JSP bullets and newer dies. I have a set of old dies that squeeeeeeeeze the daylights out of the JSP bullets...and that's just the lightest setting

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On 7/9/2019 at 6:56 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

None of my LFCD's leave a ridge mark like that. Maybe you should contact Lee about your die. :huh:

Case mouth splitting is caused by the work hardening of the case mouth, from repeated firings and reloading cycles.

OLG

 

 

 

The "ridge mark" is caused from a firm crimp. The LFCD has slits coming up the side of the die. This is where it gets it''s crimp function from. I used the LFCD specifically when using bullets with no crimp grooves that do NOT have a true 44-40 Ogive profile. 

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On 7/9/2019 at 6:56 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

None of my LFCD's leave a ridge mark like that. Maybe you should contact Lee about your die. :huh:

Case mouth splitting is caused by the work hardening of the case mouth, from repeated firings and reloading cycles.

OLG

 

 

There is nothing wrong with his die.

 

It is simply a matter how much you crank the die down.

 

All my 44-40s have such a 'ridge'. Apparently I did not crank down the die so much with my 38-40 rounds, but there is still a slight 'ridge'.

 

 

44-40%20and%2038-40%2002_zpsfdu6yemc.jpg

 

44-40%20and%2038-40%2001_zps3j03hm5g.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

 

There is nothing wrong with his die.

 

It is simply a matter how much you crank the die down.

 

All my 44-40s have such a 'ridge'. Apparently I did not crank down the die so much with my 38-40 rounds, but there is still a slight 'ridge'.

 

 

44-40%20and%2038-40%2002_zpsfdu6yemc.jpg

 

44-40%20and%2038-40%2001_zps3j03hm5g.jpg

 

Yours looks fine-The one in the one picture had a raised spot that none of my FCD dies have ever left on my ammo.

OLG

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As he said, there are four slits between the 'fingers' of the die. I'm sure you know that. The more the die is cranked down, the narrower the void between slits becomes. The raised portion of his crimp is where one of the slits is in relation to the crimp. Unfortunately, I only have less than a box of 44-40 on hand right now, and I did not come across any with the raised portion on their crimps. But over the years I have seen it plenty of times on my 44-40 ammo.

 

I'm about to crank out a few boxes tonight, I'll see if those voids show up on any.

 

Again, there is nothing wrong with seeing those small raised portions on the crimp, it is just a matter of how much the die has been cranked down.

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1 minute ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

As he said, there are four slits between the 'fingers' of the die. I'm sure you know that. The more the die is cranked down, the narrower the void between slits becomes. The raised portion of his crimp is where one of the slits is in relation to the crimp. Unfortunately, I only have less than a box of 44-40 on hand right now, and I did not come across any with the raised portion on their crimps. But over the years I have seen it plenty of times on my 44-40 ammo.

 

I'm about to crank out a few boxes tonight, I'll see if those voids show up on any.

 

Again, there is nothing wrong with seeing those small raised portions on the crimp, it is just a matter of how much the die has been cranked down.

 

Again-None of my Lee FCD's have a finger collet. They are a solid crimp ring.

Can you post a picture of this finger collet?

OLG

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Three Foot Johnson saved me from posting those type photos. Now you can see the slits that aid in the collet function. Folks complain of "marks" left on the case mouths. There are at least two sets of "marks" that the LFCD leaves behind that leave scares on the case for life! When the case is inserted, the collet function begins closing those slits as the die is squeezing in for the crimp. On the 44-40, we use different diameter bullets. Anywhere from .4255 (44-40) to .429 (44 Special) to .430/2 (44 Magnum) pending your application. If someone uses a 44-40 LFCD on any bullet greater than .4285 to .429, it will more than likely leave the "bump" marks. This is because the collet closes in too late on .430 dia. bullets and crimps before the slits get a chance to close. The crimp itself is also harsh on the case mouth in that the line it leaves around the mouth circumference. Both of these marks "cut" into the brass and cause a weak area. Most...99% of shooters never see a case failure BUT the "bump" mark will lead to split case mouths when using higher pressure loads rather than weak cowboy plinking loads. These marks will remain on the case forever more. I still use my LFCD in certain applications...I am just pointing out an issue that may or may not affect reloaders preference. For it is "preference" that we are talking about right? I just have a sorry way of explaining my observations.

Below is a photo of three cartridges. The cartridge on the left used a Redding Profile crimp die. A nice smooth transition into a tapered type, slight roll crimp that is very effective on lead bullets, especially softer lead. The case mouth is "dug" in a little and flush with the bullet surface allowing a smooth transition from the case to the lead.

The center cartridge used a LFCD with a standard crimp on a .428 dia bullet. This crimp is harsh but the case mouth is not "dug into" the lead and can be felt with the finger when the area is lightly rubbed. The transition from the case mouth to the lead is not "flush" UNLESS it is crimped into a crimp groove which then can exaggerate the harsh crimp line cut into the brass. The splits in the collet have closed enough by the time the crimp has started to not leave any slit "bumps".

 

The right cartridge used the LFCD on an oversized bullet. The .430gr 44 magnum bullets are too big for the 44-40 LFCD. The slits do not fully close before the collet has a full crimp causing the side "bumps".

EDITED: I always forget something. On the cartridge to the right, notice the radius "bulge" due to the deep crimp (not noted). This bulge is what causes a lot of cartridges to not fully cycle with ease into a chamber. That little radius bulge is flattened back down when run through a Redding Profile die.

 
 

67415833_1231098587070722_8880039626887135232_n.jpg

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Bought my FCD's when they first came out.

Wonder if the .44 WCF is still like this.

These are what I'm using.........

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

 

I notice there's no .44 WCF listed here.

 

OLG

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Bought my FCD's when they first came out.

Wonder if the .44 WCF is still like this.

These are what I'm using.........

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

 

I notice there's no .44 WCF listed here.

 

OLG

That is not a LFCD

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5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

YES- it is, It says so even in the link;)

OLG


You are exhausting me. Those are not available in 44-40.

 

CARTRIDGE   CARTRIDGE
32 S&W - 32 S&W Long - 32 ACP - 32 H&R   40 S&W or 10mm Auto
9mm Luger   41 Magnum
380 Auto   44 Mag, 44 Spl., 44 Russian 
38 Super & 38 ACP   45 Colt, 45 Scho. & 454 Casull
38 Special & 357 Mag   45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 GAP

 

 

Lee does not make carbide dies for the 44-40 because it is a tapered case.

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I only deal in facts.......:lol:

What you say ain't a FCD, is clearly stated as such in the link I post'd and on Lee's site.

Carry on,

OLG

 

I am done with you!
Lee does not manufacture Carbide dies for the 44-40.
The link you posted does not list a 44-40 
 

The link I posted is the 44-40 LFCD

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OK, everybody take a step back from the computers.

 

Here is a photo of my 38-40 Lee Factory Crimp die. It is mounted in one of my Hornady Lock and Load collets. You can clearly see the slit in the side. There are four of them, equally spaced around the circumference. The last date I have on a box of 38-40 ammo is 2016, so that is probably about when I bought this die.

 

38-40%20Factory%20Crimp%20Die%2001_zpstp

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a view from the top. Not quite so clear, but one of the slits can clearly be seen.

 

38-40%20Factory%20Crimp%20Die%2002_zpsv0

 

 

 

 

I have been using my 44-40 LFC die for probably close to 20 years. No, I am not going to take a photo of it, there is so much BP bullet lube gunked in it that you could not see the slits anyway. It's late and I just finished loading a batch of 44-40s and I am not about to clean it out right now. And I certainly am not going to take it apart for a close photo, I have been using that die for a long time and don't want to reset it.

 

You are just going to have to take my word for it that both of my Lee Factory Crimp Dies have the slits between the fingers or the business part of the die.

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