Winchester 1897, 16 Gauge

["Big Boston"]

I've been a closet fan of the 16 gauge for many years. I briefly used a 16 ga. 870 for yard work. For CAS I gravitated to the '97, finding a SxS a bit awkward to use. I've used a pump for hunting since I was a pup, so a pump is already in my DNA. I bought a clone and have a "D" takedown for a spare, and another for parts. 

 

That's the history: I found an "E" in 16 ga at a show recently, a takedown that I was unable to takedown. I passed on the deal, and did a bit of research on probable causes to this issue. My best guess was that somehow the magazine plug and stop had been installed incorrectly. Last weekend I saw the dealer at another show and he still had the '97. I was pretty sure it wouldn't have sold, as it was priced high IMNSHO. I decided to take a chance, even though the price was too high and that I have a rue not to buy from this dealer as his firearms are of a poorer quality than usual gunshow fodder. 

 

I'm a bit ashamed of what I had to pay for it, so I'll not mention the price. I took the "prize" home and removed the magazine cap and stop, and easily "took it down". Assembling the cap and stop properly converted the '97 back into a takedown model. I also tightened it up, moving the adjusting sleeve lock 1 notch past "0". I tried 2 but that was too tight. So far so good. I oiled the action and Q-tip'd most of the crud out of it, and it functioned OK. I also did a quick bore swab, no issues there.

 

I've read that when Winchester updated the '93 in 1897, they strengthened the receiver and changed it somewhat to accommodate 2 3/4" shells. Unfortunate it wasn't until around 1930 that manufacturers began to stamp the barrels with chamber size as well as gauge. So, to be prudent I checked the chamber. Got to love the Winchester 2 piece chamber, with it's barrel chamber ring in the receiver. I don't have a gauge, but using my M&W inside caliper, it seemed a bit short of 2 3/4", even adding in the distance from the bolt face to the far side of the chamber ring. 

 

To confirm my measuring methodology, I grabbed my '97's in 12 and measured all 3 of them. Now I was puzzled, the chambers were all the same length, not the same as the 16, and not 2 3/4" either. I was confused, I'm not the first cowboy to own my backup match '97, and it has had years of 2 3/4" shells through it.

 

Research revealed a number of unsubstantiated "facts". The, IMO, more reliable information was from Brownells "Measuring and rechambering shotgun chambers". The more common 16 ga chamber length for 16 ga was 2 9/16". There were many other lengths, shorter and longer, but from 1897 to 1929, 2 9/16" was the standard. After 1929, the American standard was 2 3/4". Another source indicated that it was not until 1931 were any manufactures making 2 3/4" 16 gauge ammunition. Remington introduced 2 3/4" 16 ga ammo along with their Model 11 shotgun.

 

Another tidbit was that before our modern plastic wads, chambers tended to be cut a bit short, to seal the gases from blowing holes in the pattern. The 5° forcing cone was utilized with sealing in mind as well, IMO. 

 

I'm not going to get into another opinion war, not my intent, I just would like to garner a few more facts. I know that when steel shot came into use, longer forcing cones and opening up the choke were common remedies for busted guns. Some Semi-autos were prone to breaking extractors and exhibiting brutal recoil, which a longer forcing cone and less restricted choke would cure. I've lengthened a few forcing cones on a few 870's in 12 and noticed a slight reduction in recoil.

 

During the Winchester 1897 era the common chamber for the 12 was 2 5/8". That is why I was getting different "numbers" when I compared my 12's to my 16's. My 12 chambers are 2 5/8, as they measure a bit too small to pass as a "tight" 2 3/4".

 

I've decided on a course of action, I'll be lengthening the chambers to 2 3/4" and I'll likely go to a forcing cone longer than the standard 5°.

 

In conclusion, if you are shooting an older '97, it may be a good idea to check the chambers. In my case, assuming that they are 2 3/4" because the last owner shot 2 3/4", was an erroneous assumption. 

 

One caveat, if I were to shoot BP in brass shells, the "as is" chambers would be perfect.

 

Big Boston

 

076200100_Shotgun_Chambers.pdf

[Yul Lose]

I’ve got 13 Winchester 1897’s in 16 gauge. Love them.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I’ve got 13 Winchester 1897’s in 16 gauge. Love them.

Is that all..........

OLG

[Yul Lose]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Is that all..........

OLG

For now.

[Shotgun Clay]

Dang, now I really want one. 

5 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I’ve got 13 Winchester 1897’s in 16 gauge. Love them.

Is the frame downsized from the 12?  I love 16 gauge model 12's because they're much trimmer than the 12 gauge. 

 

If so I see a '97 in my future.  I already roll 2 1/2" loads for my old Browning A5's so any vintage is cool.

["Big Boston"]

6 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I’ve got 13 Winchester 1897’s in 16 gauge. Love them.

 

Winchester didn't make many of these, perhaps you should share some with the rest of us.

 

Take care YL, like the man said, "I bet you can't just buy one"

[G W Wade]

51 minutes ago, Shotgun Clay said:

Dang, now I really want one. 

Is the frame downsized from the 12?  I love 16 gauge model 12's because they're much trimmer than the 12 gauge. 

 

If so I see a '97 in my future.  I already roll 2 1/2" loads for my old Browning A5's so any vintage is cool.

All 97 frames are the same.  Heard people like throwing the smaller 16 ga thru the port made for 12 ga shells.  Plus it"s easier to palm 4 16 ga shells for over the top loading     GW

[Shotgun Clay]

Thanks, I was hoping for a slimmer gun. 

[Yul Lose]

1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Winchester didn't make many of these, perhaps you should share some with the rest of us.

 

Take care YL, like the man said, "I bet you can't just buy one"

Well believe it or not the first 1897 that I bought was from a gun shop up in Murrieta, Ca. and I was told that it was one that Tex used to use. Being the gullible type I bought it and never have checked to see if that was true, anyway over the years if a 16 gauge came along I usually ended up with it. A neighbor of mine works at a local gun shop and when they get one in He’ll give me a call. I got one for $125.00 a couple of years ago. The problem nowadays is the gun safe is getting to small and Mrs. Lose would probably notice if there were two of them out there.

[Yul Lose]

2 hours ago, Shotgun Clay said:

Dang, now I really want one. 

Is the frame downsized from the 12?  I love 16 gauge model 12's because they're much trimmer than the 12 gauge. 

 

If so I see a '97 in my future.  I already roll 2 1/2" loads for my old Browning A5's so any vintage is cool.

No, I don’t believe so. The loading port is the same size and if you check fired hulls the 12 gauge is shorter than the 16 gauge and because the 16 gauge hull fired is sometimes susceptible to hanging up when being ejected I built a fixture to cut 16 gauge hulls to 2 9/16” for reloading. Since I did that I’ve never had a reloaded hull hang up on ejection. I had a local machinist fabricate a sciving tool to thin out the mouths of the hulls and they crimp perfectly nearly all of the time. Herters and Federal purple hulls reload the best, IMHO, and the ladies like to compliment me on my pretty shotgun shells.

[Cowboy Junky]

12 hours ago, G W Wade said:

All 97 frames are the same.  Heard people like throwing the smaller 16 ga thru the port made for 12 ga shells.  Plus it"s easier to palm 4 16 ga shells for over the top loading     GW

Yep I knew a few folks that were looking at the 16 Ga guns way back when for that reason...….many of the old shotguns of all gauges were 2 1/2...….and should be checked.