Question for those of you who shoot Rugers...

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

3 hours ago, Red Cent said:

"The transfer bar is staying up and maintaining pressure on the firing pin, scribing a fairly good scratch on primers and casings if I pull hard enough on the hammer to get it to rotate the cylinder."

 

"It is supposed to do that."

 

Larsen, I thought the transfer bar "hung out" in its space connected to the trigger, no springs involved. I don't understand how the firing pin would scratch the primer.

There is a piece of information missing from the OP's posts.  Either he is not explaining things well or the smith did something completely bizarre.  The transfer bar is an extremely loose fit in the frame.  It basically flops around loose.  The base pin has a spring loaded plunger in it that keeps constant rearward pressure on the transfer bar.  This is necessary because when the tirgger is released the transfer bar drops below the firing pin.  What can and does happen if the base pin is partially out of the frame or the plunger is missing or stuck is that the transfer bar can hit the bottom of the firing pin on its way up when the trigger is pulled and get stuck under the firing pin.  When being shot slip hammered there are actually two springs pushing on te transfer bar.  The base pin plunger and the firing pin spring.  The firing pin spring alone can push the transfer bar back when the gun is being slip hammered.  I also cannot understand how the firing pin can be dragging on the primers.  The transfer bar and its relationship to the firing pin are very simple and it should take about ten seconds to verify if there is a problem.  Like I said, the OP either is not explaining the problem well or the smith did something weird.

[Noah Cash]

My fault in not being clear,  the transfer bar is coming up behind the firing pin as the trigger is pulled, and as long as there is no brass in the cylinder it does not interfere with the rotation of the cylinder.  If there is brass in the cylinder the transfer bar STAYS UP as it should while the trigger is held back, however it stays forward placing undue pressure on the F/P causing the drag on the brass.  As I release the trigger just a very slight amount it then lowers as it should as the trigger is allowed to move forward.  With it in the up position and trigger back it will not float back and forth by the pressure put on it by the base pin.  I could not even get it to move rearward using a tiny screwdriver  inserted in front of the bar prior to the trigger allowing it to drop down in unison with the triggers forward movement.   I pulled the hammer back a small amount,  and tried to move the Transfer Bar and it seemed to be locked up tight with no forward or rearward movement at all.  Once the trigger was forward, all was free again

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Are you sure the base pin is completely seated?

 

Are you sure the base pin has the plunger and spring in the end of it?

 

If yes to both of those.......I would GUESS that your smith has made some kind of mod to the transfer bar and/or trigger that isn't working as he intended.

 

Never heard of Ruger making their vaqueros unable to be slip hammered.....surely that would have come up on the wire before now.

 

Stan

[Noah Cash]

cylinder pin also has spring installed and feels like it has the same tension as other Rugers, double checked pin is installed all the way

[Gunbutcher]

I might be able to help.  I bought my Vaqueros gently used.  Most everything felt good except for the trigger pull.  It took me a while but i tracked the problem down to the transfer bar. When I pulled the trigger, the bar would move up and the angled back would contact the frame pushing it into the firing pin.  The friction and the firing pin spring caused the hard trigger pull.  The transfer bar should not push on the firing pin when in the up position.  It will not reset until you release the trigger.

. 

I stole this picture from above.  The transfer bar is actually backwards in this photo.  The angled part in the front should be in the back.  This is the section of the bar i suspect is hitting the frame. 

Here is a better picture.  I ended up filing the rear of the transfer bar to fix the issue.  I hope this helps.

[Pat Riot]

18 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

There is a piece of information missing from the OP's posts.  Either he is not explaining things well or the smith did something completely bizarre.  The transfer bar is an extremely loose fit in the frame.  It basically flops around loose.  The base pin has a spring loaded plunger in it that keeps constant rearward pressure on the transfer bar.  This is necessary because when the tirgger is released the transfer bar drops below the firing pin.  What can and does happen if the base pin is partially out of the frame or the plunger is missing or stuck is that the transfer bar can hit the bottom of the firing pin on its way up when the trigger is pulled and get stuck under the firing pin.  When being shot slip hammered there are actually two springs pushing on te transfer bar.  The base pin plunger and the firing pin spring.  The firing pin spring alone can push the transfer bar back when the gun is being slip hammered.  I also cannot understand how the firing pin can be dragging on the primers.  The transfer bar and its relationship to the firing pin are very simple and it should take about ten seconds to verify if there is a problem.  Like I said, the OP either is not explaining the problem well or the smith did something weird.

 

You know what Larson, I will bet that is why mine didn't slip hammer when new.

I had to replace the base pin spring because the cylinder pin kept sliding out just a little bit but enough to cause issues. Since I don't slip hammer I never noticed unless the pin slid far enough out to lock the gun up. I just assumed something was done during assembly at the factory.

Boy is my face red...When I did some work to the gun, replaced the hammer and installed a new base pin spring that issue (cylinder pin slip) went away.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Obviously if the firing pin is dragging on brass while the trigger is pinned back and the transfer bar is up...something is wrong. The cylinder pin or base pin springs being weak are not the answer. The firing pin has a rebound spring that is sufficient to push the transfer bar back on all 9 of my Ruger SA's without the base pin being in place. The problem that would be created by the weak base pin is a difficulty in cocking due to the nose of the transfer bar hanging up on the firing pin as it attempts to climb in its channel. This is not a consistent problem and would depend largely on the angle of the pistol when cocking was attempted due to the floppy nature of the unsupported transfer bar. The cylinder pin spring pushes the transfer bar against the rear wall of its channel.

Someone has altered the geometry of the transfer bars. SO WHO REALLY DID THE "WORK" HERE? I'm really curious to know how something that simple got altered that far out of whack. How it would be missed by a professional during a timing and function check is also hard to believe. Whenever I change the hammers or springs I always check the function and timing on all six cylinders...twice while looking at the revolver from the side. I'm able to see the cylinder stop and firing pin as it protrudes and retracts. Once very slowly and the second time more quickly.

 

The MORE I think about it, the LESS it makes sense. Somehow someone with a lack of understanding how these things work got under the hood. I'm no expert, but Rugers are fairly straightforward. 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

CLEAR THE WEAPON-

Point the muzzle straight up, into the sky. Will it slip-hammer now?

Then point it to the ground any try again.

OLG

[Gunbutcher]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

CLEAR THE WEAPON-

Point the muzzle straight up, into the sky. Will it slip-hammer now?

Then point it to the ground any try again.

OLG

If the firing pin is dragging the brass, it must be depressed by the transfer bar. That means the bar is not being hung on the bottom of the firing pin. It moves into place and then moves farther thereby depressing the pin.  This eliminates any possibility of a base pin issue and leaves the frame and transfer bar interaction as the problem. Wether the frame was not cut properly or the transfer bar is out of spec or even both of these is the question. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 minutes ago, Gunbutcher said:

If the firing pin is dragging the brass, it must be depressed by the transfer bar. That means the bar is not being hung on the bottom of the firing pin. It moves into place and then moves farther thereby depressing the pin.  This eliminates any possibility of a base pin issue and leaves the frame and transfer bar interaction as the problem. Wether the frame was not cut properly or the transfer bar is out of spec or even both of these is the question. 

Baby steps......

OLG

[Noah Cash]

So much of this discussion is an eye opener however the revolvers have worked fine since day one when there is no brass in them.  It is doubtful that a standard function check would have caught it.  I doubt that Ruger would install snap caps or any other type of dummy round to check clearances.  I did polish and taper the forward top end of the transfer bar, enough to assure that the bar was NOT hanging up on the firing pin as t moved upward.  I replaced the standard NMV Hammers with SBH Hammers, no change, put the standard hammers back in,  same as before. 

 

I did receive a reply from Ruger:

 

"Could you please provide us with more information on what you are referring to " Slip-Hammer" . Ruger does not recommend fanning the revolver however we do not design them differently because of this. "  (My emphasis ) 

 

My biggest concern in all this is the LIE I was told by the person who tried to convince me that the failure to slip hammer,  which mechanically is the same as fanning, was a deliberate design function by Ruger.  Something is definitely wrong with these guns and I was told that they would correct the issue if I paid to overnight them  at a cost of about $60.00.  If its a Ruger oops fine they can fix it, if a screw up by the smith,  ok they can fix it, stuff happens,  but the customer should not have to pay for it nor should the customer be lied to in order to cover it up. I was fortunate enough to have a good friend able to hand carry these revolvers to the smith for me saving the $60.00

 

I do appreciate the discussion and hopefully when I get them back I may be able to shed a bit more light on them and this issue.

 

[Noah Cash]

I got these revolvers back last night, and they work now.  Brass or no brass, they slip hammer fine.  The individual who transported them was also told that this was a deliberate design feature by Ruger, which is not true as evidenced by Ruger's E-Mail to me, posted earlier.  All along that was my biggest issue in this resolution.  The 'Smith was able to fix them without returning them to Ruger, I believe the firing pins length or the F/P Return springs were the issue.  I Wouldn't expect the Smith to catch an issue like this because I expect that he would function check without brass, and not bother to load brass if all seemed well.  I just don't appreciate the attempt at covering up issues by falsely claiming the design of the revolver caused it and I was supposed to request the slip hammer modification specifically.  While this smith is a well known outfit, I am done with them mainly because of the misleading information.  This was way to easy to get Ruger to deny the design feature crap.  While I will not publically disclose this smith because this I hope was an anomaly and not the norm for them, if anyone wants to know who it was, send me a PM.