Warden Callaway Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 We bought a CIA PW87 yesterday. My first impressions were better than I came to expect from the many accounts I read. The action was stiff and felt gritty as I was told to expect. I took the major guts out and knocked off sharp edges, slicked up the surfaces that rub and cleaned out any grit. I didn't get adventures and change any angles or modify anything. The action works noticeable smoother and lighter. Due to the uncomfortable weather, we've only shot it a dozen times. All were STS factory loads. When worked smartly, it acts like it wants to feed and function well. But when it pulls the fired hull out of the chamber and failes to eject it. It looks like for sure an 1/8" of the hull is still in the chamber. Maybe more. Am I going to have to load roll crimped shells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 On the 87' you are the ejector. Action must be worked fully and sharply. A lot of times extractors have to be tuned and timed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm sure running and breaking it in will help. I just ran some dummy rounds through it and they all ejected ok. Of course, they were loaded length - not shot length. So they didn't extend into the chamber. When a fired star crimp hull is thrown out, does the carrier kicker kick it loose from the extractors? Or should it have enough force to overcome the part of the hull that is still in the chamber/receiver ring? The 87 is sure an odd duck. I'm fascinated by how it works. I'm not going to make any changes until I study it more and work it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Dot, 14911 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 The Chinese 87s I had liked 2 1/2 inch shells better. Ymmv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Bisley Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 My Coyote Cap 87 works best with Winchester AA hulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 It's always hard to tell about these things without seeing the gun and function testing it. Typically, when this happens the left hand extractor is not releasing the rim in time. By the time the bolt has rotated far enough to have removed the hull most of the way from the chamber, the left hand extractor should be released and the last bit of extraction and ejection should take place with only the right hand extractor holding the rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 That is why CC put a good sized radius on the bottom to the bolt's face. To gain case clearance. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/Bibbyman/CIAWP87hull20140126_zpsa71e27cc.jpg Here is a picture of an STS hull stuck. I've been cycling the action and it will now sometimes kick out this case. Even this picture shows it almost ready to clear the receiver. Yesterday evening the hull would have been deeper into the chamber. Before I even shot it I polished the face and the angle at the bottom edge but not taking any significant metal off. I'm thinking it's just a breaking in process and as mating parts wear smooth, the breach block assembly will rotate another degree or two. Upshot is; It should cycle and eject 2-3/4" star crimped loads and most guns do. But it sounds like some guns have the same problem as mine and people cope with it by loading 2-1/2" shells, use brass hulls, or roll crimp hulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisler Wood Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Looks like the extractors just let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It has nut'n to do with 'break-in'. The extractors did their job. You have a dimensional interference issue. Where the case head is touching the bolt face is where Coyote Cap puts a radius. This radius serves to pull the fired case farther from the chamber to clear for ejection. Also-Make sure ALL the screws are tight. How does it cycle unfired ammo? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 It'll run dunnies with mixed results. Loading 5 in the tube, one on the carrier and one in the chamber, the first one tends to hang on the bolt face and next round does not rise far enough. Although at times it will run all 7. Loading 4 in the tube, one on carrier and one in chamber tends to work better. Pushing the fifth round up the tube is noticeably tougher. It would work fine if I didn't put one on the carrier as one would feed when action is closed. The last one tends to sometimes stand on bolt face or fall back onto the top of the carrier. My dummy rounds are filled with wax so they are heavier than empty and but lighter than loaded. When I polished up the action, I smoothed up the bolt face and the chamfer at bottom of bolt face. I didn't take any significant amount of metal off or change shape of bottom edge. You mention a radius at bottom edge of the bolt face. On my gun it's not what I'd call rarius but a flat chamfer. Has anyone got a picture of a radius on a bolt face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Sorry to say, I have no way to post a picture of this. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 I found this long dissertation on 1887 mods on the Coyote Cap website. It would be nice to have some pictures to help understand some of the points. While valuable, I'm not sure how much of it f it applies to the current CIA PW87 gun. Are the CIA and IAC guns one and the same? http://www.coyotecap.com/gunsmithingsimplified.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I think this may be what Lumpy is referring to -- from my Coyote Cap modified '87: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 Ah! Yes! Thank you. The bottom edge of the bolt face on my gun is not rounded but just has a slight chamfer. I don't think I'll jump in and put that much radii on mine. Maybe a stroke or two with a file and then try. By the way, is there any tips on loading the magazine without taking skin off the thumb? I tend to drop in the shell and push it in with my left thumb. Although I lightly deburred and broke edges on the parts, they are still plenty sharp parts. The right extractor is particularly sharp. I thnk I need something like a tongue depresser to push them in thr magazine tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 By the way, is there any tips on loading the magazine without taking skin off the thumb? I tend to drop in the shell and push it in with my left thumb. Although I lightly deburred and broke edges on the parts, they are still plenty sharp parts. The right extractor is particularly sharp. I thnk I need something like a tongue depresser to push them in thr magazine tube. That's why the model '93 & '97 were developed. Try grabbing the receiver between your thumb and middle finger -- your elbow is pointing toward the muzzle end -- and with a hook motion, shove the shell in with your index finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 That's why the model '93 & '97 were developed. Try grabbing the receiver between your thumb and middle finger -- your elbow is pointing toward the muzzle end -- and shove the shell in with your index finger, which is likely narrower than your thumb. I concede your point but the 87 is just plain cool. Thanks for the loading instructions. I'm on my on this project - other than you gays. I've never before had an opportunity to handle or shoot one so my learning curve starts at zerro. Nobody at our local SASS club runs one. So it's an adventure. I've see a few original 97s in local shops but have passed on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 That's it. BTW, JMB had the 93/97 designed long before the '87 lever. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Howdy Warden, they are just plain cool. Lots of style points. The learning curve is very steep and an unmodified '87 is at best difficult to be competitive with CAS "load two" restriction. Outside the confines of competition, they are a hoot to shoot. Inside the confines of competition, they need to be modified to load quickly as it's easy to drop a shell on the carrier and push it below the chamber, but above the mag tube. Coyote Cap has engineered a "drop two" mod that inhibits this tendency, but it requires a bit of finesse. The upside is it allows the use of the magazine if you want. The downside is it's still possible to shove a shell too deep in the receiver in the heat of the moment. I'm not aware of any SASS/CAS competitions that allow stoking the mag. Lassiter offers a "positive drop two" where travel of the carrier is limited so you can't shove a shell too deep. The upside is you can load and shoot two quickly for competition. The downside is you won't be able to load the magazine. Cap's mod is what I opted for as rendering the magazine inoperative seemed sacrilegious to me. I still haven't mastered the finesse of loading it so I mostly use my SxS for competition. The other thing with the '87 is you have to shove the lever all the way forward to eject a shell. Unlike our lever action rifles, the '87 lever has to travel well forward past 90 degrees to cycle things properly. I've found that muscle memory from operating rifles -- especially a short stroked one -- sometimes keeps me from completely cycling the lever. This pretty well guarantees an empty hull stays in the gun. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 "gays" he sez..... When you push a rnd into the mag tube. Push the shell about 3/4" farther than you think it needs to go. Put no pressure on the lever when mag loading. I load using my thumb as a pusher..... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 As with the 93/97, 'drive' the '87 like you stole it. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 That's it. BTW, JMB had the 93/97 designed long before the '87 lever. LG Yes, but as I recall Winchester initially wouldn't build it because their reputation was in lever guns. He didn't want the '87, but designed it because the company told him to. Regardless, it's a remarkably strong, simple and efficient design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yes, but as I recall Winchester initially wouldn't build it because their reputation was in lever guns. He didn't want the '87, but designed it because the company told him to. Regardless, it's a remarkably strong, simple and efficient design. Yup, IIRC-it took just a bit over 2 yrs to go from 'blue-shy' to patent for the '87 lever. JMB was very impressed with the spencer, you see this in his tool room prototypes that I saw at the BB Museum in Cody Wy. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 My training is in design drafting and worked over 33 years in an engineering department doing design and design related work. I take apart any John Browning designed gun and marvel at the simplicity and economy of parts. I take apart the 87 and I can't imagine designing, prototyping and manufacturing this gun without CAD and CNC. Does anyone know if the new PW87 is the same as the earlier Chinese 87s? Or are they a whole new gun out of a different factory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 JMB must'a loved puzzles. I do believe they come from the same China plant. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 The end of this video shows the problem I've had with the PW87 ejecting a fired star crimped shell. I think he explains the fix but he speaks so softly I can't understand what he's saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Update. I pick up the PW87 about every day and study it. I've found a couple of things to report on. 1) Coyote Cap's notes mentioned that the carrier screw hole on the right side was cut too deep on IAC models. Well, they apparently have not corrected the problem with the PW87. The right side carrier was being held out from the frame by the screw protruding too far. I took some of the thread from the screw but finally lightly chamfered the hole in the carrier. I wondered why after cycling the action a dozen time I'd find the right screw loose. The action seems to work more freely now that the screw is not binding on the carrier. 2) Turning my attention to the awful trigger pull. You could pull the trigger an 1/8" until it would become noticeably heavy before it would finally break. I've improved the trigger pull somewhat by installing a screw just above the sear on the hammer and filling it down to remove some of the take up. I found another oddity on the trigger. Or rather the trigger spring, as it was a coil spring rather than a flat spring. All the breakdown instructions I've seen on 1887s show a flat spring. The exploded view parts list shows a flat spring and screw. I took one coil off the spring. While it lightened the pull some, it's still very heavy. I think the answer would be to use a lighter spring. It will fire and eject 2-3/4 star crimped loads fairly well. The last one tends to stick on the bolt face. But I've not trimmed the bottom edge of the left extractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Trim both extractors. Until you radius the bottom of the bolt like in the posted picture. You will have last round issues. You want very light extractor tension on the right side. I used a cut down Bic ballpoint pen spring. Use blue(#242)Loc-tite on those main pivot screws. Do you know how to take down this SG? All you need is needle nose pliers to 'un-hook the hammer spring and then push out the pivot pin. This is done after you remove both carriers by removing their 2 screws(1 on each side). LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 I've rounded the front bottom of the bolt some but not as much as the one pictured. I figured I can always take more off but it'll be difficult to put it back on. I've been successful in disassembling the 87 from the get-go. It may have been a puzzle had I not watched a couple of YouTube videos. Pure John Browning. What's disturbing is that after countless thousands of these guns made they have not seen fit to correct problems that existed in the early production run. Loc-tite is a good idea. I'll apply some once I get the bugs out and not likely to take it apart so often. I ran some black powder loads through it this afternoon and that was fun. I like being able to clean it from the chamber end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 They were not made to run 2 3/4" long shells, except the 10ga. My 3 '87s run as smooth as can be. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Are your 87s real Winchesters? What got me started on a hunt for an 87 was my son saying he ran across old 10 gauge shotguns in gunshops and farm auctions in northern Minnesota. He'd seen 87s and 1901s. I asked him to watch for one and if he found a good deal on a solid shooter, buy it for me. Well, he's not come through and I got tired of waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Are your 87s real Winchesters? No-The 'real' 12 gauge Winny is BP only. Like I said, the 12 gauge of that time was not a 2 3/4" shell. Mine are from IAC. 2 of them are Coyote Cap 'race' guns. I shoot a 20" that I bought from BACO. My 18" 'Cap' just sits in the safe for now. My wife Shoots an '87 lever in SASS/CAS and loves it. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Should a guy be proactive and stock spare parts? Everything looks robust enough or something can be substituted but the extractors and main spring. What tends to break? Any good source of parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The only part I have broken to date, is the lever's little pivot pin. The big deal to remember to make sure ALL screws are TIGHT. Loctite #242, is your friend here. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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