Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

What is the Correct Call


The Virginia Kid - Life #35492

Recommended Posts

Marauder Said: Summary, it isn't so much where or how you stand, but the muzzle direction

 

PLUS 1

 

This is ALL it's ever been from the beginning. MUZZLE DIRECTION !!

 

The whole argument is where some don't believe that you MUST position your body to where it's possible to draw a pistol without breaking the 170. There are situations where it is impossible to draw a crossdraw without breaking the 170, and we have people here saying that it isn't so. Well, they are just wrong.

 

RBK

Sorry, RBK.... but, you're just not getting this whole muzzle direction has nothing to do with where your feet are placed, which direction you're running or how your body is turned.

 

I just hope you're not ever running the timer at any match that is higher than your own home club.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 124
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Sorry, RBK.... but, you're just not getting this whole muzzle direction has nothing to do with where your feet are placed, which direction you're running or how your body is turned.

 

I just hope you're not ever running the timer at any match that is higher than your own home club.

 

What B.K. said.

 

It is possible, with care, to draw a pistol from any holster with one's back to the friing line and NOT break the 170 degree barrier if you are familiar with the twist draw and a few other techniques. May not be fast or pretty but.... it can be done!!! :rolleyes:

 

IF the 170 was broken by the muzzle of the shooter in the OP, I have no problem with the SDQ or even the MDQ call. If the call was made simply because of the shooter's body position then the call was made by someone who is misinformed or unfamiliar with the actual rule.

 

RBK, if you agree that the "dance" or "twist" or whatever has nothing to do with the correct call then we have no argument. :o:D

Link to post
Share on other sites
Obviously, lots and lots of folks ain't ever gonna "git" it.

Why are we such masochists to keep it up. Just ditch it. It was a sad day when the cone concept went down in flames, and only and because folks just couldn't "git" it.

What we need to do is adopt my "natural draw" concept. Neither Billy the Kid or John Wayne ever worried about any 170. The only thing we should concern ourselves with is this: did the pard draw his pistol safely and naturally as humans have been doing with single actions for at least a century and a half and did he/she do so without muzzling anyone else? If so, NO call.

We have a rule proscribing unsafe gun handling. That is all we need. We do not need the 170 and it should be scrapped.

[rant on]

 

Actually, I think we are better off... because in reality, even tho' only X-draw shooters seem to be in the sights of those that can't "get it", much more flagrant and exaggerated draws would result from the "cone" concept. Far more folks would in reality be unable to understand the concept, and we would ultimately have a far worse problem than the misconception about the 170º. If... and that's a really big IF, we had stuck to mandating that the trigger finger was required to be outside the trigger and the hammer remained "down" until the gun was within a 45º arc to directly downrange, none of these issues would be flaring up. Until, we require the trigger finger remain outside the trigger guard until the hammer can be cocked... and ignore the balance, this will continue. We wouldn't even be looking a folks as they draw, except as they handle the trigger finger.

 

Personally, the number of issues regarding uncertainty safety calls is due to the fact that we number far more neophyte shooters than many other shooting sports. When one doesn't have a background in any other shooting sport, there less confidence to make calls and fully understand the great lattitude we have in the draw and gun handling in general.

 

We have become enamored of numbers and convoluted descriptions to attempt to communicate some rather simple concepts. Take the "30º from vertical" rule as an example. This simple "one size fits all" rule makes almost no sense, except as it applies to strong side or reversed holsters. The traditional X-draw holster worn in front of the "off" hip benefits from having up to 15º more degrees of cant. But, the mamby, pamby, the sky is falling chicken littles amongst us only see their feet being swept by a holstered sixgun from 1-½ feet away when the holster is 3 feet off the ground. And apparently had the votes to overrule commonsense. Apparently didn't believe that a holstered sixgun is "safe".

 

From the 1989 SASS Handbook:

No shooter will have his/her finger on a firearm's trigger until the firearm is pointed safely down range.

But apparently, that "pointed safely down range" is a concept that's too difficult to grasp in today's "oh please protect us" atmosphere. We apparently need the over-regulation we speed more band width trying to define than we ever did... pre-internet!

 

Remember these definitions:

Common: occurring or appearing frequently

Sense: conscious awareness

 

Ergo, the (common sense) or, if you will, the frequently appearing conscious awareness has apparently degenerated into sheer stupidity. It certainly can't be the "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts" that I grew up with.

 

[/rant off]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Marauder Said: Summary, it isn't so much where or how you stand, but the muzzle direction

 

PLUS 1

 

This is ALL it's ever been from the beginning. MUZZLE DIRECTION !!

 

The whole argument is where some don't believe that you MUST position your body to where it's possible to draw a pistol without breaking the 170. There are situations where it is impossible to draw a crossdraw without breaking the 170, and we have people here saying that it isn't so. Well, they are just wrong.

 

RBK

 

I can face any direction and not violate the 170...

 

geeze!

 

:wacko:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Griff, maybe you could enlighten me as to how a shooter, like the ones we use, could possibly fire with the finger on the trigger during the draw. I would like to learn that technique. All that happens when I pull the trigger is that it moves a bit and stops, no BANGGG or nuthin. What am I missing as to the possibility of something dangerous happening.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Griff you still owe me your alternative to the cone concept you promised over a year ago...

 

I don't know why I can't seem to get any traction with my natural draw concept. Can't even get an amen or so much as a comment...

 

We could combine 'em: natural draw, finger off the trigger, don't cock until pointed downrange and at least 45 degrees elevation, forget the 170...

Link to post
Share on other sites
Griff, maybe you could enlighten me as to how a shooter, like the ones we use, could possibly fire with the finger on the trigger during the draw. I would like to learn that technique. All that happens when I pull the trigger is that it moves a bit and stops, no BANGGG or nuthin. What am I missing as to the possibility of something dangerous happening.

Never snagged a hammer on a piece of equipment or clothing, eh? Since other shooting sports use this same rule, and some of their shooter's also don't fire by simply pulling the trigger... what's wrong? What I'm saying, is that it wasn't broke before, the "fix" seems to have spawned a whole bunch of shooters that can't grasp the idea that keeping the finger outta the trigger guard is a "good thing" to quote a convicted felon. And a bunch that seem to want their rules laid out in such a manner that even a ... censored.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not ignoring your 'natural draw' concept, LD. It's just that putting "natural" and "Lone Dog" in the same concept has us stopping to catch our breath. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I'll bite, the only thing worse than the cone concept, soundly defeated by a wide margin by the TGs is a natural draw alternative. The 170 degree concept works, enough said! Using John Wayne as any example of how to properly draw is downright stupid. He was always shooting blanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

SHeeesh... LD, I was just teasin' ya. I argued for the 'cone' 'til I was blue. Let's face it.. ain't gonna happen. We can't even get folks to watch the muzzle because whether someone dances or not is easier to understand than WHERE THE HELL IS THE MUZZLE POINTED?

 

And you want GREEN PEACE DRAW? err... Natural draw? Aight... now how is that easier than WHERE IS THE MUZZLE POINTED?

Link to post
Share on other sites
For those of us who haven't been around here long, what is or was "the cone"? Doesn't the 170 rule create a cone?

I'll try. Yes, the 170º is a cone, forward of the firing line. Howver, the "cone of safety" was an idea that used that same concept to describe an area around the shooter's muzzle as it left the holster... and as long as the muzzle stayed pointed in that cone, until it was then within the 170º that a "no call" for breaking the 170º could be called. The amount of the cone was stated as 5º, but there was so much confusion over that idea that it flamed out rather dramatically.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I am used to being insulted by GCK who continually reminds me I am the stoopidest hand on the spread. I just consider the source. The cone of safety was defeated because folks in this game are the least "gunny" and least gun savvy bunch ever. Many are downright hoplophobes. It made perfect sense and was almost what we very well perfectly needed and still really really need (the natural draw being even better)but certain chicken littles couldn't wrap their heads around it. Had we adopted it, we wouldn't be having these continual issues. Everything would be running smooth and we could be concentrating on shooting and having fun.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I am used to being insulted by GCK who continually reminds me I am the stoopidest hand on the spread. I just consider the source. The cone of safety was defeated because folks in this game are the least "gunny" and least gun savvy bunch ever. Many are downright hoplophobes. It made perfect sense and was almost what we very well perfectly needed and still really really need (the natural draw being even better)but certain chicken littles couldn't wrap their heads around it. Had we adopted it, we wouldn't be having these continual issues. Everything would be running smooth and we could be concentrating on shooting and having fun.

If all that is true, why did it fail by 80 percent as I recall. In case you forgot it would have allowed a shooter to point the gun uprange enough that an AD could have hit someone. Also several large ranges said they would not allow it. Of course you know better than all those folks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll try. Yes, the 170º is a cone, forward of the firing line. Howver, the "cone of safety" was an idea that used that same concept to describe an area around the shooter's muzzle as it left the holster... and as long as the muzzle stayed pointed in that cone, until it was then within the 170º that a "no call" for breaking the 170º could be called. The amount of the cone was stated as 5º, but there was so much confusion over that idea that it flamed out rather dramatically.

 

Well I am used to being insulted by GCK who continually reminds me I am the stoopidest hand on the spread. I just consider the source. The cone of safety was defeated because folks in this game are the least "gunny" and least gun savvy bunch ever. Many are downright hoplophobes. It made perfect sense and was almost what we very well perfectly needed and still really really need (the natural draw being even better)but certain chicken littles couldn't wrap their heads around it. Had we adopted it, we wouldn't be having these continual issues. Everything would be running smooth and we could be concentrating on shooting and having fun.

 

So, if I understand correctly, the cone opened downward, and governed muzzle direction during the draw?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if I understand correctly, the cone opened downward, and governed muzzle direction during the draw?

The cone would have applied at any time during the stage including all movement whenever gun was out of holster. This could have allowed shooter to move left or right with gun pointing slightly uprange and could have allowed a loaded pistol to sweep the ROs feet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cone would have applied at any time during the stage including all movement whenever gun was out of holster. This could have allowed shooter to move left or right with gun pointing slightly uprange and could have allowed a loaded pistol to sweep the ROs feet.

 

Loaded pistols are sweeping folks feet...pretty much all the time.

 

Not saying the Cone was a good idea...

 

So anyway, just call the breaking of the 170 regardless of whether there's a Dance or whatever...or whether the shooter is using a straight draw...x-draw...quickdraw mcdraw draw...whatever. Breaking the 170 is holster styly neutral.

 

:wacko:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I still don't quite understand how the cone concept is different from the current 170 rule. Ah, well.

 

Isn't sweeping the foot covered under a separate rule from the 170? You must keep the muzzle downrange, AND you can't sweep anyone?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok Phantom, You tell us how you draw a Cross Draw pistol thats sitting on a holster pointed 180 to the rear of the firing line without breaking the 170. It cannot LEGALLY be done.

 

RBK

 

True that can not be legally done but only because a pistol pointed 180 (straight back) to the rear is not a legal. The angle cannot be more than 30 degrees from vertical. But to draw from a 30 degree crossdraw holster positioned close to the belt buckle and with the left foot slightly forward the muzzle will already be less than 170. Therefore no movement by the shooter would be necessary,

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.