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Tennessee williams
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2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

SHB pg 17

 

Yes I know!!!

  It seems that TW  wants a either a clarification or a rule  that being sweep behind the line should be a penalty. As you stated the  revolver is safe I wanted to know his thoughts.  As for my other example should I be held accountable that gust of wind knocks over my gun cart and my long guns swept another shooter. Here is another WF . Shooter is going to the LT has their guns up and slightly forward and another shooter walks in front of them. The shooter with the guns stops abruptly and sweeps the other person. Should they be penalize?   

It seems to me that he made a general statement  about sweeping and I wanted his thoughts if all sweeping should be included . To get a rule change or a clarification you need to look at all the ramifications that could happen before any action on a  clarification or rule is taken. And if the new clarification or rule needs multiple exceptions is it really needed.  

 

Nawlins   

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3 hours ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

With your post we see your concern about being swept. You do know that any club can implement their own rules and regulations regarding the handling of firearms away from the firing line. So they can be stricter than SASS rules. All the ranges that I have shot at have been cold, so if someone comes from their vehicle and then to the loading table with live ammo in their firearms than they should be done for the day period.

 

So let me ask a couple of WTC’s if a sweeping rule behind the line is implemented. A shooter with a Slim Jim holster with the barrel sticking out of the holster bending over to get something out of the cart and sweeps you with barrel. Should they be penalize?  Let’s say I have an umbrella on my cart and gust of wind comes and knocks over my cart. Should I be penalize for sweeping someone?

I do agreed with you I don’t like to be sweep off the firing line (and I have) but when I look to see if the actions are open I just tell the shooter to be careful with the muzzle. In all the years I have been in SASS I don’t recall seeing anyone coming to the LT without checking their actions first when leaving their carts. Yes I’m trusting that those firearms have been cleared and don’t have live ammo and if they did there is a penalty for it.

 

Nawlins

 

 

 

  Don't get me wrong, I don't like to be swept but my bigger concern with this post is being able to make the correct call. Yes some ranges are cold ranges but not all. And that wouldn't be a SASS call, that would be a rangemaster call that may or may not be enforced. 

  There is verbiage that a call can be made on the firing line and other verbiage saying "always important". To some, not me, but some this would imply a dropped gun off the firing line is more safe than a dropped gun on the line. I would assume this is because guns are supposed to be cleared between unloading tables and loading tables. This doesn't hold water before the first stage.

   Some of your what ifs are covered and some are covered indirectly. The slim Jim holster is a no call. In my opinion the gun cart issue if they swept someone and a call can be made outside of between the loading and unloading tables could be called. After all, your gun knocked from the loading table is your responsibility. But that is for a different thread.

    Is an sdq call for sweeping someone a legitimate call anywhere other than between the loading and unloading table and if so, at what point does it start?

Edited by Tennessee williams
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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

  Don't get me wrong, I don't like to be swept but my bigger concern with this post is being able to make the correct call. Yes some ranges are cold ranges but not all. And that wouldn't be a SASS call, that would be a rangemaster call that may or may not be enforced. 

  There is verbiage that a call can be made on the firing line and other verbiage saying "always important". To some, not me, but some this would imply a dropped gun off the firing line is more safe than a dropped gun on the line. I would assume this is because guns are supposed to be cleared between unloading tables and loading tables. This doesn't hold water before the first stage.

   Some of your what ifs are covered and some are covered indirectly. The slim Jim holster is a no call. In my opinion the gun cart issue if they swept someone and a call can be made outside of between the loading and unloading tables could be called. After all, your gun knocked from the loading table is your responsibility. But that is for a different thread.

    Is an sdq call for sweeping someone a legitimate call anywhere but between the loading and unloading table and if so, at what point does it start?

I don't believe it's appropriate to consider a gun dropped off the line as 'safer' than one dropped on the line.  The relative safety unfortunately probably isn't known until after the fact when the gun is determined to be either loaded or unloaded.

 

It seems to me the question you asked originally wasn't about which of those three scenarios is 'safer'.  I think we can all agree that none of them are safe.  They all violate a major gun safety rule.  The question is whether they violate a SASS rule.   As you've noticed we don't have a ruling.  I think if scenario's 2 and 3 were covered by SASS rules we would have heard so by now.

 

Here's a scenario.  Shooter 1 sweeps Shooter 2 while getting his guns out of his cart.  The TO is running a shooter through the stage at the time.  Shooter 2 wants a SDQ for Shooter 1, but Shooter 1 denies having swept him.  Nobody else observed it.  What's the call?  Who makes the call?  What is the decision based on?

 

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4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't believe it's appropriate to consider a gun dropped off the line as 'safer' than one dropped on the line.  The relative safety unfortunately probably isn't known until after the fact when the gun is determined to be either loaded or unloaded.

 

It seems to me the question you asked originally wasn't about which of those three scenarios is 'safer'.  I think we can all agree that none of them are safe.  They all violate a major gun safety rule.  The question is whether they violate a SASS rule.   As you've noticed we don't have a ruling.  I think if scenario's 2 and 3 were covered by SASS rules we would have heard so by now.

 

Here's a scenario.  Shooter 1 sweeps Shooter 2 while getting his guns out of his cart.  The TO is running a shooter through the stage at the time.  Shooter 2 wants a SDQ for Shooter 1, but Shooter 1 denies having swept him.  Nobody else observed it.  What's the call?  Who makes the call?  What is the decision based on?

 

Let me play devils advocate . Let's say shooter one was removing his long guns in a safe way and shooter number two not paying attention walks in front of the cart. Shooter one is stuck because he was removing his firearms and can't stop. So are we to assume shooter one is guilty?

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51 minutes ago, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

Let me play devils advocate . Let's say shooter one was removing his long guns in a safe way and shooter number two not paying attention walks in front of the cart. Shooter one is stuck because he was removing his firearms and can't stop. So are we to assume shooter one is guilty?

It's a good question.  If I'm the TO I have a hard time making a call in either scenario, yours or mine.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't believe it's appropriate to consider a gun dropped off the line as 'safer' than one dropped on the line.  The relative safety unfortunately probably isn't known until after the fact when the gun is determined to be either loaded or unloaded.

Me either.

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

It seems to me the question you asked originally wasn't about which of those three scenarios is 'safer'.  I think we can all agree that none of them are safe.  They all violate a major gun safety rule.  The question is whether they violate a SASS rule.   As you've noticed we don't have a ruling.  I think if scenario's 2 and 3 were covered by SASS rules we would have heard so by now.

 

Here's a scenario.  Shooter 1 sweeps Shooter 2 while getting his guns out of his cart.  The TO is running a shooter through the stage at the time.  Shooter 2 wants a SDQ for Shooter 1, but Shooter 1 denies having swept him.  Nobody else observed it.  What's the call?  Who makes the call?  What is the decision based on?

 

You are correct.

  As for your WTC scenario I've not seen it called off the line, but have heard it has been called. Which makes another point for clarification. 

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ramifications

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's a good question.  If I'm the TO I have a hard time making a call in either scenario, yours or mine.

 

 

 

 

 

i feel the same way!  In an earlier post that is way I mention that when there is a clarification or rule chance all possible ramifications have to be considered. The more exceptions that are in rule or clarifications the more problems can occur .

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I tripped over some one else’s gun cart years ago and and me and their guns spilled. I jumped up quick as I could picked up their gear and did not ever said a word till now. Irish ☘️ Pat

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On 9/28/2021 at 9:17 AM, Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 said:

With your post we see your concern about being swept. You do know that any club can implement their own rules and regulations regarding the handling of firearms away from the firing line. So they can be stricter than SASS rules. All the ranges that I have shot at have been cold, so if someone comes from their vehicle and then to the loading table with live ammo in their firearms than they should be done for the day period.

 

So let me ask a couple of WTC’s if a sweeping rule behind the line is implemented. A shooter with a Slim Jim holster with the barrel sticking out of the holster bending over to get something out of the cart and sweeps you with barrel. Should they be penalize?  Let’s say I have an umbrella on my cart and gust of wind comes and knocks over my cart. Should I be penalize for sweeping someone?

I do agreed with you I don’t like to be sweep off the firing line (and I have) but when I look to see if the actions are open I just tell the shooter to be careful with the muzzle. In all the years I have been in SASS I don’t recall seeing anyone coming to the LT without checking their actions first when leaving their carts. Yes I’m trusting that those firearms have been cleared and don’t have live ammo and if they did there is a penalty for it.

 

Nawlins

 

 

 

OK the way I read it there were 2 SDQs

   Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied. I know for certain this is a SDQ happened to me personally 3 or 4 matches ago

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people.  I thought this to was a SDQ???? if so then that would be the 2 sdq's i mentioned for a MDQ :-)

 

WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

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On 9/15/2021 at 1:33 PM, Tennessee williams said:

   Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

 

  Shooter unloads his long guns from the trunk of his car and sweeps 3 people while putting them in the gun cart. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

ok as only shooting for 1 year what is the actual call?? At some point I would like to know the correct answer please. 

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10 minutes ago, Yohan said:

OK the way I read it there were 2 SDQs

   Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied. I know for certain this is a SDQ happened to me personally 3 or 4 matches ago

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people.  I thought this to was a SDQ???? if so then that would be the 2 sdq's i mentioned for a MDQ :-)

 

WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

We all know scenario one is an SDQ.

These are 3 different scenarios.

 

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8 minutes ago, Yohan said:

ok as only shooting for 1 year what is the actual call?? At some point I would like to know the correct answer please. 

Good question. My reason for the OP is to get a clarification as to whether a shooter can get a legitimate sdq for sweeping someone anywhere other than between the loading and unloading tables and if so, at what point would it start. 

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