? on declaring a malfunction (refer to WTC elsewhere)

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

didn't want to hijack the WTC about a malfunctioned rifle going off as shooter was putting it on the table

 

just wondering:  shooter locks up a gun be it rifle or revolver

 

calls a malfunction and goes to set it down

 

as he does the malfunction goes away (ex: cylinder that was jammed is moving now)

 

to the best of my limited knowledge there is no way to call it 'not malfunctioned' and return to shooting--his original call of 'gun broke' stands

 

cr

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi CR,

 

I don't see why the shooter can't say, "by George, the cylinder moved." Then, pick the revolver up and shoot it. If the cylinder is still stuck, the shooter can call a malfunction again. There is no penalty for doing this, except the time it takes and that is on the shooter. Who would complain?

 

Regards,

 

AM

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

didn't want to hijack the WTC about a malfunctioned rifle going off as shooter was putting it on the table

 

just wondering:  shooter locks up a gun be it rifle or revolver

 

calls a malfunction and goes to set it down

 

as he does the malfunction goes away (ex: cylinder that was jammed is moving now)

 

to the best of my limited knowledge there is no way to call it 'not malfunctioned' and return to shooting--his original call of 'gun broke' stands

 

cr

 

There is nothing in the rules that would prevent a shooter from continuing with that firearm if the "malfunction' was remedied before the firearm left the shooter's hand(s).

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

thanks to both.  Last thing I want to do is penalize the shooter for my mistake.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I think PaleWolf said the part I remember.  BEFORE it leaves the shooter's hands.  In Wild Bunch if you declare a firearm malfunction you CANNOT use that firearm again during the stage.  I don't know the EXACT call in CAS though.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

I think PaleWolf said the part I remember.  BEFORE it leaves the shooter's hands.  In Wild Bunch if you declare a firearm malfunction you CANNOT use that firearm again during the stage.  I don't know the EXACT call in CAS though.

 

Once a malfunction has been declared & the firearm is no longer in the shooter's hands, it MAY NOT be brought back into play on that stage.

 

Example: Stage instructions are "In any order, except rifle may not be shot last."

A shooter has a rifle jam mid-stage, declares the malfunction, and safely grounds it on a prop - 8 unfired rounds remaining (40 seconds in "miss" penalties).

When the shooter retrieves the rifle after firing the other firearms of the stage, he is able to "unjam" it before leaving the line.

The shooter may NOT continue the stage engagement at that point, taking a "P" for "out of order" engagement + a 10-second MSV for "rounds remaining" when the rifle was initially discarded (in an attempt to offset the total penalty count by 20 seconds)

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Got it!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

Once a malfunction has been declared & the firearm is no longer in the shooter's hands, it MAY NOT be brought back into play on that stage.

 

Such a call (shooter may not pickup a gun declared as malfunctioning and use it again) made correctly by a TO at EOT 2016 got overturned on shooter appealing to chief ROs and the shooter was not penalized for continuing to fire rest of rounds from a rifle after declaring it jammed and throwing gun down on table (hands were off).  At that point, other shooters noticed the jammed round had popped out of rifle and yelled for shooter to pick it up and use it again.  Initial penalty was Minor Safety for using a gun that had been declared Malfunctioning and re-staged in that condition (MSV because gun became not a legal firearm to utilize further).  Penalty was removed upon review by ROs on duty at the time,

 

This is not a common occurrence (for sure), it's not well defined in the rules, especially what a penalty should be if the shooter declares malfunction, grounds gun with hands off, and at any time later tries to use the gun on the stage.  Perhaps it needs to be included in the rules.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

There are only three MSVs listed in the rules:

Quote

Minor Safety Penalties

Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. 

Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170 safety rule or sweep anyone. 

Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

 

 

There IS provision for a MSV for an uncleared long gun to be negated before firing the next firearm of the stage (as you noted, it would be very rare for a "discarded" firearm to "self correct" in order for a shooter to continue after declaring a malfunction)...problem arises when a cocked/loaded firearm leaving the shooter's hands (immediate SDQ if not declared) becomes useable upon hitting the deck:

Quote

18. Long guns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared.  This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.  

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Then what is the penalty if the shooter does indeed resume using a firearm previously declared malfunctioning and which has left their hands (especially while suspected and later proven to be still containing ammo in magazine/on carrier/in chamber and perhaps even cocked)?   RO I handbook defines the prohibition for doing so ("May not be brought back into play") but does not establish the penalty, as far as I can find.   Does this become a SDQ for using an illegal firearm at this point (which is one of the cited SDQ penalties).   Or perhaps a SDQ for unsafe firearm handling (also a SDQ penalty)?

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

GJ, I don't know the CAS Penalty but in WB it is treated the same as "illegal ammunition".  Procedural plus misses for any rounds fired and the time is NOT adjusted.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

27 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Then what is the penalty if the shooter does indeed resume using a firearm previously declared malfunctioning and which has left their hands (especially while suspected and later proven to be still containing ammo in magazine/on carrier/in chamber and perhaps even cocked)?   RO I handbook defines the prohibition for doing so ("May not be brought back into play") but does not establish the penalty, as far as I can find.   Does this become a SDQ for using an illegal firearm at this point (which is one of the cited SDQ penalties).   Or perhaps a SDQ for unsafe firearm handling (also a SDQ penalty)?

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Taken to the ROC for final ruling.

(BTW - what page in the RO1 for that quote?)