U.S. Gov. Arming Mexico Cartels?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

If you ever watch video or look at pictures of the drug war in Mexico, you'll notice some pretty heavy weapons. This is a war being waged with rockets and plastic explosives, not pea shooters and Saturday Night Specials. Consider these incidents:

 

- A M26A2 fragmentation grenade used against a U.S. Consulate in Mexico in 2008

 

- Explosive projectiles and 21 grenades found during a raid in Guadalupe

 

- An unexploded grenade and pull ring used to attack a TV station in Monterrey

 

- Automatic weapons, including U.S.-made M16s found at a cartel crime scene in May 2009

 

- U.S. military-issued ammunition found in a cartel raid in Reynosa in November 2008

 

You can't buy this stuff at a U.S. gun store. So where do the cartels get it? According to leaked diplomatic cables, there are three sources.

 

1. U.S. Defense Department shipments to Latin America, known and tracked by the U.S. State Department as "foreign military sales."

 

2. Weapons ordered by the Mexican government, tracked by the State Department as "direct commercial sales."

 

3. Aging, but plentiful arsenals of military weapon stores in Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua.

 

Even though these facts were well-known by the Obama administration, including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Attorney General Eric Holder, it blamed much of the violence in Mexico on U.S. gun stores.

 

"More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our border," President Obama said in February 2009.

 

That was contested, but few listened to gun store owners and former vets like Lynn Kartchner, owner of Allsafe Security, a gun shop in Douglas, Ariz.

 

"We in the gun industry knew from day one the allegations that the preponderance of sales came from gun stores like this one was totally not true," Kartchner said.

 

In fact, many of these weapons are getting to Mexico via the U.S. government. Tens of thousands of firearms and explosives are sold legally through the U.S. State Department to the Mexican government. These weapons are then funneled to the traffickers and cartels by corrupt officials within the Mexico Ministry of Defense and local and state police departments.

 

According toState Department documents, in 2009 Mexico bought nearly $177 million worth of American-made weapons, exceeding sales to Iraq and Afghanistan. That number includes $20 million in semi- and fully automatic weapons.

 

"Most of the M16s were sold legally to the Mexican government and disappeared," Kartchner added.

 

State Department cables obtained by WikiLeaks confirm that fear. One cable from November 2009 reads "U.S. law enforcement has fair reason to worry a number of weapons simply disappear... "

 

Another from June 2009 says, "Rogue elements of the Guatemalan military are selling weapons to narcos."

 

These are weapons that have been stockpiled either through U.S. aid programs or currently being shipped there under the guise of military support," said a confidential informant in Arizona who has worked for federal agencies such as the FBI, ATF and DEA.

 

"The governments and military in those countries realize that the economy is such that they are far better off to push these weapons north and sell them than they are to keep them in their own arsenals and reserves," he said.

 

Evidence of that is also contained in the Small Arms Survey. The table shows U.S. government sales of rifles, machine guns and handguns in the hundreds of thousands over a five-year period number.

 

And a GAO report from last year details both foreign military and direct commercial sales of arms from 2005 to 2009.

 

After looking at a warehouse full of high-powered weapons, allegedly stolen by a corrupt Mexican federal police officer, the informant said it was obvious to him that such weapons did not come from the "mom and pop" gun stores identified by the administration.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Probably the most vicious cartel is the Zeta Cartel. It was founded by select Mexican Army Special Ops who had been trained by the CIA, originally to take down the existing cartels. They did their job so well they went rogue and took over the Mexican drug trade. They now have branch offices, if you will, in at least 55 American cities, including Washington D.C. And they still have contacts in the Mexican Army, so they have no problem getting arms and munitions.

 

Mexican corruption in political and military circles is a tradition going back to Santa Anna, and probably even before him. Of course, it's easier for our government to go after the soft target - its own citizens - than to do the hard and right thing and tell Calderone where to get off.

[BJT]

I was in Cabo a month back. One of the soldiers posted in the marina was carrying a AR type rifle with the grenade launcher under the barrel, so their own Army could source some of that stuff.

 

I was very happy he never saw the need to use that firepower while I was there.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Just one of the many problems this country faces. America deeply longs for real leadership.

[Sebastian Cain]

I've been wondering something since not long after we started hearing all the talk about the percentage of guns seized in Mexico that were from the U.S. Of the ~17% that can be tranced to the U.S., what percentage are from stores/gun shows, etc. and what percentage are guns that were sold/given to Mexico or some other Latin American country? Nobody seems to know, or want to say, and I think it would be very instructive. It would also be interesting to know what percentage were guns allowed out of the U.S. by the BATFE.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Regardless of the legal status, drugs are big business. Control of that business is a nasty thing requiring arms. When ya have so many dollars coming from so many Americans wanting the dope, this will continue until and unless the business is legitimized.

 

Substitute the word "booze" for "cocaine", and Chicago for Mexico, and ya got an exact replay of the prohibition-era "war" in the US that BANKROLLED and CREATED the modern mob, and killed, imprisoned, or otherwise ruined a whole lotta people in the process. (It also very greatly expanded US FEDERAL law enforcement, making it into an industry all its own)

 

Back in the day, if Capone wanted a gol durn mortar, he could get one. His cronies would BUY ONE from a national guard armory, paying off a crooked armorer. If the "G men" wanted to weaken capone, they might well facilitate arming his opponents, secretly, through intermediaries of course, but they'd get it done. Nothing has changed except the faces and names, and the numbers of dollars involved.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Regardless of the legal status, drugs are big business. Control of that business is a nasty thing requiring arms. When ya have so many dollars coming from so many Americans wanting the dope, this will continue until and unless the business is legitimized.

 

Substitute the word "booze" for "cocaine", and Chicago for Mexico, and ya got an exact replay of the prohibition-era "war" in the US that BANKROLLED and CREATED the modern mob, and killed, imprisoned, or otherwise ruined a whole lotta people in the process. (It also very greatly expanded US FEDERAL law enforcement, making it into an industry all its own)

 

Back in the day, if Capone wanted a gol durn mortar, he could get one. His cronies would BUY ONE from a national guard armory, paying off a crooked armorer. If the "G men" wanted to weaken capone, they might well facilitate arming his opponents, secretly, through intermediaries of course, but they'd get it done. Nothing has changed except the faces and names, and the numbers of dollars involved.

 

 

AJ,

You are dead on. I could care less what substance these idiots abuse until they endanger the public. Alcohol or cocaine, if you are impaired you go to jail. You hurt somebody you don't get out.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

AJ,

You are dead on. I could care less what substance these idiots abuse until they endanger the public. Alcohol or cocaine, if you are impaired you go to jail. You hurt somebody you don't get out.

 

 

Nate, the ONLY part of this that irritates me is dope is the biggest TAX EXEMPT business in the country. When pot alone is the largest cash crop in so many places, and instead of paying taxes, the taxpayers of OTHER industries pay to chase em around, arrest, try and imprison em, and treat em in hospitals and on SSd/SSI, while the dope INDUSTRY flourishes tax free. Legalize it, save the money we spend on cops, probation, parole, incarceration, etc, and tax the heck out of sales. An ounce of pot could be grown for $1, sold for $100, of which $50 could be tax..... I dunno the numbers for coke, but I suspect we could import pure powdered coke from Colombia for $15/ounce if it was legal, and sell it for $300 .....

[Bart Solo]

Our company tried doing business in Mexico. We left Mexico because we couldn't tell the difference between the cartels and the Army. Seriously, we were trying to sell to the Mexican army and everybody had his hand out from the captain to the general. You know things are bad when you have to hire a body guard to escort a regular sales guy. I have never ecountered the level of corruption routinely experienced in Mexico. It is damn near a failed state.

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

Nate, the ONLY part of this that irritates me is dope is the biggest TAX EXEMPT business in the country. When pot alone is the largest cash crop in so many places, and instead of paying taxes, the taxpayers of OTHER industries pay to chase em around, arrest, try and imprison em, and treat em in hospitals and on SSd/SSI, while the dope INDUSTRY flourishes tax free. Legalize it, save the money we spend on cops, probation, parole, incarceration, etc, and tax the heck out of sales. An ounce of pot could be grown for $1, sold for $100, of which $50 could be tax..... I dunno the numbers for coke, but I suspect we could import pure powdered coke from Colombia for $15/ounce if it was legal, and sell it for $300 .....

 

 

So, AJ...

 

You think those fellas south of the border are going to sell coke to the US government for $15 an ounce, and let the Feds sell it on the street for $300, and not want their old profit margin back? This isn't booze; there is no such thing as a "social cokehead" or "light meth user" - at least not for long. I don't have the answer, except perhaps that we can't ban it or regulate it without paying a huge price. Somehow, we have to find a way to make people NOT want it; to understand how demeaning drug use is, how perverted their lives will become, and how much better it is to be sober. But for many, being sober is a cold, ugly reality - and maybe that's where the effort has to be applied. Don't get me started on grass...I've seen heavy users up close for over 40 years, and you can't convince me that persistent grass use doesn't destroy brain cells, motivation, and the user's sense of personal responsibility.

 

You won't "save" on cops and probation by legalizing drugs; users will still steal to get money to buy drugs; their acid-etched brains will still prevent them from holding down a job or being a productive individual. All legalization will do is remove the social stigma, impair the ability of the law to keep a lid on use and related crime, and spread the drug "culture" even further than it has oozed already. If the government tries to sell drugs at high prices, cut-rate dope smugglers and suppliers will jump in; if the government cuts the price, the present suppliers won't sell to them. Do you want the government in the drug production business?

 

Thank God that your kids don't use, and remember that every user out there is somebody else's kid.

 

LL

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

So, AJ...

 

You think those fellas south of the border are going to sell coke to the US government for $15 an ounce, and let the Feds sell it on the street for $300, and not want their old profit margin back? This isn't booze; there is no such thing as a "social cokehead" or "light meth user" - at least not for long. I don't have the answer, except perhaps that we can't ban it or regulate it without paying a huge price. Somehow, we have to find a way to make people NOT want it; to understand how demeaning drug use is, how perverted their lives will become, and how much better it is to be sober. But for many, being sober is a cold, ugly reality - and maybe that's where the effort has to be applied. Don't get me started on grass...I've seen heavy users up close for over 40 years, and you can't convince me that persistent grass use doesn't destroy brain cells, motivation, and the user's sense of personal responsibility.

 

You won't "save" on cops and probation by legalizing drugs; users will still steal to get money to buy drugs; their acid-etched brains will still prevent them from holding down a job or being a productive individual. All legalization will do is remove the social stigma, impair the ability of the law to keep a lid on use and related crime, and spread the drug "culture" even further than it has oozed already. If the government tries to sell drugs at high prices, cut-rate dope smugglers and suppliers will jump in; if the government cuts the price, the present suppliers won't sell to them. Do you want the government in the drug production business?

 

Thank God that your kids don't use, and remember that every user out there is somebody else's kid.

 

LL

 

 

LL, we "fight" the scourge of alcoholism every day, from marriage counselling to AA to liver transplants, but we don't have HALF our prisons full of drunks and rum runners. You're right, we work on the mores of society. I've seen social attitudes regarding booze change in the last 35 years in this country. We fight it in the open, while at the same time not spending the huge resources playing the prohibition game. The same can be done with (currently) illegal drugs. Instead of playing cat and mouse trying to lock people up, forcing em to lie, to hide, etc, you dela with em in the open, change hearts and minds, not simply put em in cages or send em into back alleys.... That also simultaneously would dismantle the black market criminal enterprizes that have made fully 50% of the men in some urban areas criminals.

 

I note it was WOMEN, sick and tired of their men being hauled off to jail or shot in the streets, who forced the repeal of prohibition..... (yep, the same women who had supported it to begin with, wanting govenment "help" to clean em up, that backfired horribly). The drug war has FAILED. Education and decriminalization HAS helped, and can with the other poisons.

 

To say prohibition is an an answer is like trying to prevent suicide by outlawing bullets. Not gonna work, ever.

 

Take Charlie Sheen as an example. We could spend 30 years trying to forcibly clean him up, and he'll still be an addict. He did a year sober under court order, then went on a bender to thumb his nose at the courts. But if instead it was seen as bad form to socialize with or employ somebody who was so obviously SICK, turn that sickness into a thing to be shunned, not a cat and mouse legal game, he'd come around because he wants the adulation of his fans..... If his fans, his family, his employers simply said call me when yer clean, and there wasn't this entire hidden illegal culture to push the program......

[Bart Solo]

When I was in collage I took a criminology class. We studied various drugs available at that time, including herion, lsd, speed, marijuana, cocaine and a few more prevalant back in the 60s. Know what was the worst drug of all? Alcohol was far and away the worst from virtually every addictive and medical point of view. I don't know about meth, but we all treat alcohol as though it were the nice drug. It isn't. It is still far and away the most common. It is still the drug of choice of the young.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

So, AJ...

 

You think those fellas south of the border are going to sell coke to the US government for $15 an ounce, and let the Feds sell it on the street for $300, and not want their old profit margin back? This isn't booze; there is no such thing as a "social cokehead" or "light meth user" - at least not for long. I don't have the answer, except perhaps that we can't ban it or regulate it without paying a huge price. Somehow, we have to find a way to make people NOT want it; to understand how demeaning drug use is, how perverted their lives will become, and how much better it is to be sober. But for many, being sober is a cold, ugly reality - and maybe that's where the effort has to be applied. Don't get me started on grass...I've seen heavy users up close for over 40 years, and you can't convince me that persistent grass use doesn't destroy brain cells, motivation, and the user's sense of personal responsibility.

 

You won't "save" on cops and probation by legalizing drugs; users will still steal to get money to buy drugs; their acid-etched brains will still prevent them from holding down a job or being a productive individual. All legalization will do is remove the social stigma, impair the ability of the law to keep a lid on use and related crime, and spread the drug "culture" even further than it has oozed already. If the government tries to sell drugs at high prices, cut-rate dope smugglers and suppliers will jump in; if the government cuts the price, the present suppliers won't sell to them. Do you want the government in the drug production business?

 

Thank God that your kids don't use, and remember that every user out there is somebody else's kid.

 

LL

 

 

Are you kidding me!!! Just like beer and whiskey smuggled in during the probation era, once it's legalized somebody here will produce it. Hell maybe Budweiser will even get to making it. The only roll the Government will have in it will be taxing it just like booze now. The only reason drugs are so high priced now is only because it’s illegal. It's the way our system of capitalism works. Whiskey was just expensive during prohibition as the drugs are now. Hell, that's how the Mafia got started. Look how long it has taken us to get control of those guys. Do you really think you are going to somehow make it so hard these foreign mafias in south America or the south Asian cartels will actually stop what they are doing. The harder it is to get the more these folks make because the prices only goes up. Again, it’s supply and demand.

As for the social problems, as AJ said, in the last 20-30 years we have seen a push by society the modify our drinking habits and it has changed. Looking to the government to fix this only gets more inept government.

You hold individuals accountable by locking them up when they get high/drunk and hurt other people. You don't deny a whole society of law abiding citizens life liberty and pursuit of happiness just because some abuse. That's not what this country was about.

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Oh, sorry. I just noticed you're up there in MASS and that appears to be how you folks do things there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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