The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've decided not to do the modification, well actually the gun decided for me. I was getting ready to take it apart to round the bolt when I spotted this just behind the cutout on the frame for the hammer.... http://i.imgur.com/iIAugID.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rtmdhR6.jpg I can see it spread when I squeze on the lever, this one is definitely going back... I will bet you a bottle of Bulleit, that the frame on yours is cast, and not the forging like the ones Cap had build. That was imported under the IAC banner. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Is there a way a common man can tell if the frame was cast or forged? Cast wouldn't necessarily say it was weak or inferior. It would depend on what it was cast from and the process used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Sometimes, the casting porosity is pretty obvious as in a sand casting. If it's a 'lost wax' casting like many gun makers use today(Ruger). Hard to tell via an eyeball. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Well I just got my return label and it heads out tomorrow with a very detailed letter and a bag of fired hulls, the woman I spoke with on the phone said that was a good idea and that she would make sure that they test out the new on they're sending to me and make any modifications to it before it comes to me. I haven't wrapped mine up for shipping yet though so if there's anything you guys think I should check for reference sake while it's still here let me know, I'm not sure how to tell the difference between cast and forged though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 TD7, ship it and keep your fingers crossed. Ask them HOW the rec'r is made. Good luck, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 TD7, ship it and keep your fingers crossed. Ask them HOW the rec'r is made. Good luck, LG Then report back here as..... inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Ok, it's all boxed up and on it's way back to Century, in the box I included an assortment of fired hulls for them to test my replacement with, an extremely detailed letter explaining the problem in depth, and I even stuck in a copy of Coyote caps write up just incase, In my letter I included a hand drawn picture of the problem, here it is just for fun. http://i.imgur.com/N4T2m74.jpg Fingers crossed, I should have the new one back in 2-4 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Did you talk with them first and get some kind of return authorization? Good sketch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Yes, I've had a few calls with their warranty department, they sent me a RA number and a prepaid shipping label. I also have an e-mail going back and fourth with the head gunsmith there about if the frame cast or forged, I'll reply once I know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 The PW87 made it to Century today, don't know how long it will be before they check it in and start working on it though. I did get an email back from Century's head gunsmith who said "I'm afraid I have no factory data concerning the method used to manufacture the receiver of the shotgun" so it appears they don't even know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Really-and you believe him. Any 'factory gunsmith' worth a dang, would know. Did they have an ETA for return? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The PW87 made it to Century today, don't know how long it will be before they check it in and start working on it though. I did get an email back from Century's head gunsmith who said "I'm afraid I have no factory data concerning the method used to manufacture the receiver of the shotgun" so it appears they don't even know. To that I would replay, "Well I'm afraid you need to find out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 I never said I believed him, but that's all he told me. I'm going to try asking the sales department too, but they seem to take forever to answer emails. They told me for a replacement it would be around 2 weeks from when they check in the return, I made it very clear that I wanted whatever modifications needed done to my replacement before it ships to me so it could end up taking a little longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Fingers crossed. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Small update: Century arms received my PW87 on Tuesday, 02/18/2014 at 11:17 A.M, today I called in just for a status update, they said that as of this morning my return is in the final stages, it's at the step now where they test fire a new one to make sure it works and then they send it back to me. I specifically asked if there would be any documentation if anything had been modified by the gunsmith, I expect all of the PW87's have this design flaw but the operator made it sound as if they would just shoot a bunch of PW87's until they found one that worked....as long as mine works I'm happy I suppose but it doesn't say much for their quality control. Either way I'm looking forward to hopefully getting a working PW87 back soon. I still haven't heard back from them regarding the forged/cast receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 THX for the update. Ask them the details as to what brand/load they use for test ammo. Then go buy some of that exact ammo, and see what it does for you. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 UPS dropped my new PW87 off today, no warning from century that it was on it's way back, luckily I had just gotten home from the dentist so I was there to sign. Century could do a little better job packing, the foregrip wood shows slight scuffing from flipping around in the box. I opened up the box hoping to find a notice of things that had been modified or adjusted but found nothing in the box but packing paper and a cheap red trigger lock in a little bag. It's a VERY low serial number, under 250, the broken one was in the 2300's. The trigger is much better on this one, and the hammer can be cocked by hand, the broken PW87's hammer was too stiff to cock by hand.So first thing I do is pop a short hull into the carrier and a fired length hull into the chamber, work the lever and JAM.... I called up Century to ask which ammo they used because it doesn't like either of the Remington or Winchester AA hulls that I have (the same hulls I sent with the returned shotgun for them to test with, along with coyote caps write up....looks like they didn't try my hulls), The man I'm transferred to tells me that they fired an assortment of shells and they all worked fine, I asked him for the brands and he said he would have to ask the gunsmith but that they go home at 3:30pm and that tomorrow he would "talk to the gunsmith and find out what the hell is going on" he took my number and told me he would call me tomorrow with more information. After I explained the problem in depth he said that it's odd because they sell thousands of these things and he said they almost never get one back. He also suggested that I work the lever hard, to which I replied "I'm working it as hard as I comfortably can, I don't want to do it too hard, I mean the last one broke....". I'm pretty curious to hear what this call I'm supposed to get tomorrow is all about. I would still say this replacement PW87 is a step up from the last one, I can get it to eject if I do it sharply, but a part of me is always going to be worried I'm going to break it. I'm trying to remain optimistic about it but i'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little ticked off about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, that's a GIANT DUM'R for sure. Does the bore even look like it has been fired? Any marks on the bolt's breech-face to show you it has, in fact, been test fired? Insist on talking to who ever did the test fire. Find out if it was just a single load and fire or mag feed. You also want make and load of ammo used. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 It looks like it's been fired at least a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well that was a mostly pointless call.....The same guy from yesterday calls me up and says he was just down with the gunsmiths, he said they test fired some more PW87's and they are indeed picky about ammo (really???), he says the 2 PW87's they were shooting seemed to like the red shell Winchester low brass (which I've seen work on off the shelf models in videos, perhaps a slightly shorter oal?) he couldn't remember any other specifics about the shells. I brought up that if just about every type of standard 2 3/4 ammo is too long fired then it's a gun problem not an ammo problem, and that these were copied from a design made for 2 5/8 black powder shells which is why everything is too long. All he said is again that they sell thousands of these so most of them are working. I brought up that my local range only allows slugs so I couldn't shoot the "red hull winchester low brass" there, "you'll just have to try things out and see if they work" was all I got. I brought up that I was concerned about working the lever very hard because the last frame broke, the man said that that was a manufacturing flaw and not to worry about it with this new PW87.....not sure that makes me feel any better I brough up the forged/cast frame thing and he too knew nothing about it. I brought up that the left foregrip and receiver had been scratched up flopping around in the box that they didn't pack very well and asked if they have replacement wood for these, the scratches in the finish could probably just be cold blued as they're very small and not in handling areas. He said that they do keep some wood around but that he couldn't do anything about it and I would have to call in and start a new return process....some customer service huh? The call ended with me telling them how thrilled I was that I spent $300+ on the most ammo picky shotgun ever, which then promptly broke and was replaced with a scratched up version that has the exact same problem. I could have bought an 870 and I'd be out shooting right now, his reply was "hmmmmm yeah, well if you need any more help give us a call" Now I have to decide what I'm going to do because it looks like I'm on my own from this point out. I'm going to call up customer support without my happy voice on and see if I can't get a replacement foregrip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Where are you in Virginia? My 87 is picky about ammo, and I have to use Winchester AA shells for it to cycle properly. Apparently when the shell opens the Winchesters tend to be a bit shorter than the Remingtons i used. I also found that the cheap bulk shotgun shells Dick's has work great in them, too. If you're in NOVA, Sharpshooters in Lorton, VA allows bird shot in their indoor range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Ok, I've got a new set of foregrips coming, would have been a whole stock set but they're out of buttstocks. Still doesn't fix the scratches in the finish but I've learned all I need to know about Century and won't chance sending it in again. I'm in Fairfax, I usually shoot at the NRA hq range because it's only a few blocks away, but I've been to sharp shooters before. The grey Winchester AA shells seem to eject better and with less force than the green Remington slugs I tried. I'm going to ask around and see if anyone I know has a selection of fired hulls for me to test with so I don't need to spend all my money on shells that might not work and range time. . Have you modified your bolt any jrswanson1? And is yours a CAI PW87 or a different brand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Ok, I've got a new set of foregrips coming, would have been a whole stock set but they're out of buttstocks. Still doesn't fix the scratches in the finish but I've learned all I need to know about Century and won't chance sending it in again. I'm in NOVA, I usually shoot at the NRA hq range because it's only a few blocks away, but I've been to sharp shooters before. The grey Winchester AA shells seem to eject better and with less force than the green Remington slugs I tried. I'm going to ask around and see if anyone I know has a selection of fire hulls for me to test with so I don't need to spend all my money on shells that might not work and range time. . Have you modified your bolt any jrswanson1? And is yours a CAI PW87 or a different brand? Mine is the same brand, I got it used so I'm not sure if it's been modded or not. If you want, I have a few spent Winchester shells you can have. Mine is at Hatfield's Gunsmithing to get the stock shortened so I can cycle the action easier. BTW, I'm in Woodbridge. Mine is the same brand, I got it used so I'm not sure if it's been modded or not. If you want, I have a few spent Winchester shells you can have. Mine is at Hatfield's Gunsmithing to get the stock shortened so I can cycle the action easier. BTW, I'm in Woodbridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 If yours is modified the bottom edge of the bolt face will look like this http://i.imgur.com/DE2Opta.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 When I get it back from the smith I'll take a look. It does take two shells at a time, though, so I suspect it has had some work done in the past. Either way, my offer stands. I'll even donate a box of Winchester to the cause if you want to try it out at Sharpshooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, someone has to come out and say it. The shotguns sold by Century are just not that good, and that includes the '87's and '97's. The only new '97 I've ever seen blow-up on factory featherlights was a CIA and many gunsmiths will not work on them. (Actually, I just checked their website and I don't see the 97's listed currently.) I've handled a couple of the '87's and found them pretty crude. Can a good gunsmith make one serviceable? Perhaps, but I would suggest finding a Chiappa or Norinco instead if you want an '87. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, someone has to come out and say it. The shotguns sold by Century are just not that good, and that includes the '87's and '97's. The only new '97 I've ever seen blow-up on factory featherlights was a CIA and many gunsmiths will not work on them. (Actually, I just checked their website and I don't see the 97's listed currently.) I've handled a couple of the '87's and found them pretty crude. Can a good gunsmith make one serviceable? Perhaps, but I would suggest finding a Chiappa or Norinco instead if you want an '87. X2 LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It's a shame. I can overlook some of the roughness but having a receiver fail is really bad. And I'd like to get it to function reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 I take back what I said about this one being better than the last, I'm taking it completely down to make sure everything is ok, so far I've found that they sent it to me with loose carrier screws, if you tighten them it locks the bolt solid. The "camme" (little metal fin below the left extractor) was completely loose. The hammer has lots of deep milling marks along it's length, you can hear it make a sound like a zip tie as it passes over the trigger. More to come.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Looks like the camme on the bolt also likes to pin the left side of the carrier against the receiver which also locks everything up. Also the bottom front edge of the carrier smacks into the ridge of the primer on the hull in the magazine tube and hangs up on it. They sent me a real winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Here is a picture of what it's doing when it locks up http://i.imgur.com/ceg36kU.jpg I think it's too late tonight but I might call them back tomorrow and see if they'll just take the dumb thing back, this one is garbage, hope they don't mind that I smoothed out the razor sharp hammer spur after it cut the hell out of my thumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The pivot screws are to deep in the rec'r and the threaded area is push'n on the carriers. IAC had the same issue at first. Take the carriers out and do a deep counter-sink with a 45* cutter to the outside of the hole on each carrier. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Is that fix to stop it from binding up when the carrier screws are tight, or to fix the locking up problem I explained in the last post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Sorry-Bind'n up when screws are tight. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDodge7 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 That seems to have worked it's self out, the big problem now is that the bolt gets stuck on the carrier and locks up....that and the carrier gets stuck on the edge of the primer on shells in the magazine tube.....and the hulls still don't have enough room to eject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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