Buckshot Frank Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'm in the process of installing a Pioneer Super Short Stroke kit in my '73. So far, I have the timing on the forward stroke fixed (bolt retracts fully before carrier hits it). I now have a timing issue on the back stroke. The lever hits the lifter arm which starts to pull the carrier down before the bolt is fully forward. This jams the bolt and carrier. It looks like I can either file the lifter arm where the lever impacts it on the back stroke, or I could file the bottom of the lifter arm where it impacts the carrier. Any suggestions? The directions say to remove material from the carrier, but that seems like the wrong way to fix it to me. I would rather modify the aftermarket part. I'd call Pioneer, but it's Sunday and I'd like to get it done today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Frank, Before you continue with timing on the closing stroke, make sure that you try the opening stroke with an empty cartridge on the carrier. Tilt the gun back so that the case head is all the way to the back touching the frame. As the lifter brings up the case, the rim should just clear the little tit (cartridge guide) that sticks out from the bottom of the bolt. If the case rim touches the cartridge guide, it will eventually break it off and you'll have to get a new bolt (or reweld the broken one). If there is contact, fill a little more off of the lifter arm until the rim clears the cartridge guide. I haven't installed any of the Pioneer SS links. But the Cowboy and Indians 3rd gen links require that the bolt be modified by filing a sharper angle on both sides of the bolt where it hits the carrier. You file off just enough that it doesn't make contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 What Sam said.... And, you can actually file a little of the carrier AND the bolt depending. The SS kit from pioneer can be difficult to time. Be careful not to take too much off the carrier because it may allow the bullet to flip the nose of the bullet up and as you close the lever the bullet can be "stabbed" into the upper part of the barrel. I learned (the hard way) if you find yourself with a file or a Dremel tool in your hand, always modify the least expensive part because there is a good chance you will buying a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'm in the process of installing a Pioneer Super Short Stroke kit in my '73. So far, I have the timing on the forward stroke fixed (bolt retracts fully before carrier hits it). I now have a timing issue on the back stroke. The lever hits the lifter arm which starts to pull the carrier down before the bolt is fully forward. This jams the bolt and carrier. It looks like I can either file the lifter arm where the lever impacts it on the back stroke, or I could file the bottom of the lifter arm where it impacts the carrier. Any suggestions? The directions say to remove material from the carrier, but that seems like the wrong way to fix it to me. I would rather modify the aftermarket part. I'd call Pioneer, but it's Sunday and I'd like to get it done today. As has been said, first make certain a case rim clears the lower gripping ear on the bolt face. It it doesn't, take a little more off the face of the lifter arm that engages the lever. I'd be leery of messing with that little horny dude on the bolt face. On the return, closing stroke, I would take a hair off the other face of the lifter arm that engages the lever as you close until everything clears smoothly. It doesn't take much. Don't know why or how one would take material off of the inside of the carrier where the lifter arm engages on the closing stroke. Buena suerte, amigo eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 ... Don't know why or how one would take material off of the inside of the carrier where the lifter arm engages on the closing stroke... Buena suerte, amigo eGG You relieve the INSIDE of the carrier. The front of the bolt is sort of mushroom shaped, no? Look at the cutout area at the front of the carrier. Shaped the same and as the bolt closes, the carrier starts dropping a bit before it is all the way closed. You releive the back portion with a dremel. It is brass and goes pretty quick. Smooth doesn't count; only that the bolt clears the carrier when it goes down. (smooter it is the easier to clean though) Yes you can file the back part of the bolt but according to cheaper vs filing, a bolt costs more than a carrier! I have several 73's done by Jim Bowie himself and this is how he did them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'm getting close now. Front stroke: The bullet rim was just barely hitting the cartidge guide so I took a little more off the lifter arm. It's good now. Back stroke: Mine wasn't even close so filing the bolt or carrier was not going to work. The bolt was only about 1/2 forward! I also noticed that when the lever was closed, the carrier was sticking out the bottom of the frame about 3 mm. I compared the lever/lifter arm angle of the short stroke kit to stock. There was about a 20 degree difference. I ended up changing the angle of the lifter arm surface where the lever hits it to get the lever/lifter arm angle closer to stock. Once done, the carrier will drop with only minor interference with the bolt. It will only take removing a little bit off of the carrier now. The carrier is also flush with the bottom of the frame when the lever is closed. Thanks for the help guys. I knew that there was fitting involved, but this was a lot more work than I thought that it would be. I'm not complaining though; it's been a fun weekend project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 You relieve the INSIDE of the carrier. The front of the bolt is sort of mushroom shaped, no? Look at the cutout area at the front of the carrier. Shaped the same and as the bolt closes, the carrier starts dropping a bit before it is all the way closed. You releive the back portion with a dremel. It is brass and goes pretty quick. Smooth doesn't count; only that the bolt clears the carrier when it goes down. (smooter it is the easier to clean though) Yes you can file the back part of the bolt but according to cheaper vs filing, a bolt costs more than a carrier! I have several 73's done by Jim Bowie himself and this is how he did them. Gotcha! Don't know why I was visualizing relieving the carrier where the lifter arm goes; heck, I was just out in the shop doing exactly what you say (relieving the inside of the carrier where the mushroom head of the bolt didn't quite clear) on Calico's carbine.... And still the penny didn't drop! Some days I'm brighter than others. Today is one of the others. Buena suerte, eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 Finished now. The timing is perfect. I used a precision file followed up by a polishing bit in the dremel to push the bolt head opening in the carrier back a little. While I had the dremel and jewelers rouge out, I polished the carrier, the lifter arm, the hammer, and the trigger. I'm thinking about contouring the back of the firing pin extension but not sure how it will affect the firing pin protrusion. I slowly cycled some snap caps through it to make sure that everything was working. I then dry fired to check the results. The hammer spring definitely needs to be lightened! Just playing around a little, I loosened the hammer spring screw which made a huge difference. Can I just put a washer under the hammer spring to lighten it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Finished now. The timing is perfect. I used a precision file followed up by a polishing bit in the dremel to push the bolt head opening in the carrier back a little. While I had the dremel and jewelers rouge out, I polished the carrier, the lifter arm, the hammer, and the trigger. I'm thinking about contouring the back of the firing pin extension but not sure how it will affect the firing pin protrusion. I slowly cycled some snap caps through it to make sure that everything was working. I then dry fired to check the results. The hammer spring definitely needs to be lightened! Just playing around a little, I loosened the hammer spring screw which made a huge difference. Can I just put a washer under the hammer spring to lighten it? Yes, you can. Have you already backed the adjustment screw out (the one foreward of the mainspring screw)? I was just out in the shop adjusting mainspring tension myself. Using the first position on the Dillon 550B, I reprimed a case about 15 times and made certain that the firing pin would still set off Federal primers. Then I can test reliability in the shop or garage. They won't cycle, but you can get the hammerspring pretty darn light and be fairly sure the primer will go off. Then go to a monthly match, but take the appropriate screwdriver with you ~ tighten the mainspring screw just 1/8th turn if a primer fails to ignite. You may not have any trouble at all, after your shop adjustment, but this should get it just right. Buena suerte, amigo eGG If you shoot in the winter, you might need to tighten it up just a little in very cold weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 Yes, you can. Have you already backed the adjustment screw out (the one foreward of the mainspring screw)? I was just out in the shop adjusting mainspring tension myself. Using the first position on the Dillon 550B, I reprimed a case about 15 times and made certain that the firing pin would still set off Federal primers. Then I can test reliability in the shop or garage. They won't cycle, but you can get the hammerspring pretty darn light and be fairly sure the primer will go off. Then go to a monthly match, but take the appropriate screwdriver with you ~ tighten the mainspring screw just 1/8th turn if a primer fails to ignite. You may not have any trouble at all, after your shop adjustment, but this should get it just right. Buena suerte, amigo eGG If you shoot in the winter, you might need to tighten it up just a little in very cold weather. I didn't think about using primed (not loaded) cases to test. That's a good idea. So I'm guessing that you use a split washer so the tension on the hammer spring can be adjusted? Start with it fairly loose and keep tightening until it sets off a primer??? I'm currently using Winchester primers but will switch to Federals when I run out. If I can get it realiable with the Winchester primers, I should have a safety factor built in when I make the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I didn't think about using primed (not loaded) cases to test. That's a good idea. So I'm guessing that you use a split washer so the tension on the hammer spring can be adjusted? Start with it fairly loose and keep tightening until it sets off a primer??? I'm currently using Winchester primers but will switch to Federals when I run out. If I can get it realiable with the Winchester primers, I should have a safety factor built in when I make the switch. Sounds like you are on the right track. I have "thinned" my mainspring and then lightened the screw adjustment. If you do this be sure to polish the spring up very well for it will break if you leave gouges or scratches in it. For me it seems to work best by then leaving a small gap (1/16 or so) between the screw that holds the spring in place then using the strain screw to be sure there is adequate tension to keep things from loosening up. Some folks have written about simply placing a small piece of thin leather between the spring and the frame with the main screw going through the leather. Then if you have misfires you can tighten the main screw perhaps 1/8 turn and that should be plenty. One other thing you may want to do (it sounding like you are a fair home mechanic) is to pull the bolt assy and polish the firing pin extension where it fits into the bolt and removing a coil or two from the firing pin return spring. You only need enough return spring to pull the firing pin back into the bolt and a full power return spring is a lot of resistance for your now lightened main spring to overcome. Usual disclaimers Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I didn't think about using primed (not loaded) cases to test. That's a good idea. So I'm guessing that you use a split washer so the tension on the hammer spring can be adjusted? Start with it fairly loose and keep tightening until it sets off a primer??? I'm currently using Winchester primers but will switch to Federals when I run out. If I can get it realiable with the Winchester primers, I should have a safety factor built in when I make the switch. A split washer might be too hard and stress the spring. Don't know. I use a rubber faucet washer, about 3/16" thick, and shave anything that hangs over the edges with a sharp knife. Then I can tighten it down if needed. Buena suerte, eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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