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non cas accuracy problem--HELP


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Have someone else shoot it. Eliminate the operator variable.

 

If the other shooter hits low and left then it's the gun. If not, it's probably your trigger pull. Low/left is a common trigger/flinch issue.

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I was thinking along the same lines as the Great Leviathian (there goes my rep).

 

Anyhow, if nothing else works, start shootin high right..... :o

 

 

..........Widder

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I don't think it's the gun. All 3 of my 9mm's and a couple of my 22's do the same thing. It's me, and I don't know why. I'm right handed and after seeing a episode of top shot, and watching there grip, I made sure my right thummb was on top of my left. It seemed to work at first, but now it's back to the same old thing, left and low left. Maybe I can find someone at out local IDPA match this summer to give me some tips.

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not the grip - too much finger on the trigger. use just the fleshy part of the tip of your finger on the trigger

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Most likely you are anticipating the shot and flinching. Make sure the gun is unloaded. Face a wall and put a 1/16" dot right in front of where your gun barrel would be when your arms are extended. Focus on your front sight and keep it on the dot while slowly squeezing the trigger. The idea is to not move the sight out of the dot while pulling the trigger.Then slowly release the trigger until you feel it reset. Practice this 50x a night for a week. There are some other exercises out there in Google land including the use of dummy rounds to identify flinching.

 

 

Spending a few bucks with a good instructor for an evaluation would probably be a good investment.

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I don't think it's the gun. All 3 of my 9mm's and a couple of my 22's do the same thing. It's me, and I don't know why. I'm right handed and after seeing a episode of top shot, and watching there grip, I made sure my right thummb was on top of my left. It seemed to work at first, but now it's back to the same old thing, left and low left. Maybe I can find someone at out local IDPA match this summer to give me some tips.

 

Go back to the basics - shoot strong hand from a rest, see where you hit. Then standing, strong hand unsupported. See where you hit. That way you will get your gun hand right, without having your supporting hand interfering. THEN add in your supporting hand.

 

Also, take your magazines, mix in some snap caps with live rounds at random (I'll grab a handful of mixed snap caps and live and load my magazines without looking), see how much you flinch.

 

Spending a few bucks with a good instructor for an evaluation would probably be a good investment.

 

Excellent suggestion. Even an hour with a coach/instructor can be a big help.

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not the grip - too much finger on the trigger. use just the fleshy part of the tip of your finger on the trigger

 

+1

I have the same problem with most pistols. I have long fingers so most pistols have too short of a length of pull for me. This causes me to get too much finger on the trigger. I shoot pistols with a longer length of pull fine.

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+1

I have the same problem with most pistols. I have long fingers so most pistols have too short of a length of pull for me. This causes me to get too much finger on the trigger. I shoot pistols with a longer length of pull fine.

 

For right handed shooters isn't it too much finger pulls to the right, too little pushes to the left?

 

My bet would be that he is slightly tightening his fingers as he "squeezes" the trigger.

 

That is why when teaching I never tell my students to squeeze. Too many would use the whole hand. I tell them to press with only the trigger finger.

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Remediating the "problem shooter" (don't take offense at the term) is not an exact science. Which is why you have received several, correct, suggestions. (I wouldn't argue against any of them)

You didn't say but I'm guessing you're right handed. Low left, for a right handed shooter, is almost always trigger jerk. (I would have to watch you shoot and then look at the target to confirm what I see you doing)

 

What I see with my students is the tendency to want to "catch" the perfect sight picture and then jerking the trigger when the sights look the best. Stop doing that.

 

Here's a couple of my favorite tools that you can do by yourself if you willing to talk to yourself. I use them on myself nearly everytime I go to the range to keep the pure marksmanship skills tuned up.

 

One way you stop doing that is, as mentioned, with snap caps/dummy rounds. However it is incumbent on you to pay attention to what is happening when you are pressing the trigger. If I was with you I would load your mags for you and tell you to fire a couple shots. with this caveat; I would remind you what proper sight alignment is "front sight centered in the rear sight and level across the top", then I would tell you to FOCUS on the front sight. I will be watching your front sight. When the gun goes bang follow through for the next shot, when the gun goes click you have to tell me what I saw your front sight do. If you can't then you were'nt watching the front sight. We would then talk about what the trigger felt like as the hammer fell and how to stop and start over when you feel it starting to happen.

 

Another technique I use is to give the student specific orders. I tell them that they are to do only what I tell them to do and they are not to shoot the gun. I then get them on target and remind them of proper sight alignment and to take up the slack on the trigger. Instruction goes something like: "Do not shoot the gun, focus on the front sight and add some pressure to the trigger-do not shoot the gun! Focus on the front sight and add more pressure to the trigger-focus on the front sight, add more pressure to the trigger-DO NOT SHOOT THE GUN..." This continues until the there is enough pressure on the trigger that the gun goes off. Invariably the student is surprised twice. First that the gun went off (Col. Cooper's surprise break) then the second surprise is the bullet hole in the center of the target. The goal is to train the trigger finger to ignore what the eyes are seeing and to "shoot through the wobble". As you progress you will begin to "compress" the time it takes to get a surprise break. I tell my students that they are not to shoot "faster" just "compress" the time. Speed comes with perfect repetition.

 

I have my highest success rates with these two techniques.

 

For bullet strikes to the left, if it wasn't fixed above, I would, again as mentioned, look at your trigger finger placement (I actually did that before we started above). If that is consistently correct I would probably suggest that you relax your support hand by about 50%. Again the targe tells me the story.

 

Like I mentioned remediation isn't an exact science and my favorite techniques don't always work. The student's performance will dictate the technique needed.

 

Good luck and good shooting Pard.

 

Badge Pusher

(just a firearms instructor that had a really good mentor)

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For right handed shooters isn't it too much finger pulls to the right, too little pushes to the left?

 

My bet would be that he is slightly tightening his fingers as he "squeezes" the trigger.

 

That is why when teaching I never tell my students to squeeze. Too many would use the whole hand. I tell them to press with only the trigger finger.

 

My experience is that too much/too little finger can move the gun either way.

 

If I take the support hand away completely and the student is still shooting left I look at the grip as you say.

 

Badge Pusher

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Any ides why I constantly shoot low to the left, or just left with all my modern pistols (

Sig, Springfield, Beretta ) ? Been trying different things with my grip and trigger.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Doc

One of the most common maladies that a right handed shooter will encounter - and easily corrected.

 

Understand the mechanics of shooting: you're holding the gun in your hand with clenched fingers

wrapped around the grip, and now trying to move only one of those fingers backwards to operate

the trigger. Given the nature of the nerves and muscles to work sympathetically, the other fingers

are likely to clench a bit when you move the trigger finger.

 

You can see this by holding your hand in the position it is in when holding the gun, and then

moving the trigger finger back; the other fingers will move at least a little bit. The direction

they move is the direction they move the gun as well, for a RH shooter, that rolls the gun to the

left and slightly downward, moving point of impact to the 7 O'clock position.

 

The two simple things I teach folks to do is to increase their grip on the gun more firmly, to

eliminate the amount of subsequent tightening that will occur later, and to use the distal joint

(furthest away from the palm) and not the pad of the finger to shoot with. With the pad it's too

easy to push the trigger away rather than straight back, at least in any kind of shooting scenario

other than Bullseye type slow fire.

 

The support hand should wrap over the shooting hand, and not interlace so that the RH thumb is

somehow over any part of the left hand. That is, you should be able to apply or remove the left

hand without perturbing the right hand fingers at all.

 

It simple physics, if the gun is held firmly, then it won't roll left or right, and if the trigger

finger pulls back, it wont move left or right. Looser grips allow for things to move, and trigger

pulls any direction but straight back move the gun left or right . . . .

 

Hope this help,

 

Shadow Catcher

 

p.s. - there are a host of things you can do to verify mechanical accuracy of a specific gun and

ammo such as using sand bags, etc, but assuming you know that the gun is basically sound and the ammo

fairly good, the chart provided in other postings is pretty accurate.

 

P.P.S. - as you can tell - there are at least 237 theories about how to shoot correctly - so when

you get down to it, try every and any thing you read here, find what works for you, and move on.

There is no capitol T truth here as well . . . .

SC

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The two simple things I teach folks to do is to increase their grip on the gun more firmly, to

eliminate the amount of subsequent tightening that will occur later, and to use the distal joint

(furthest away from the palm) and not the pad of the finger to shoot with. With the pad it's too

easy to push the trigger away rather than straight back, at least in any kind of shooting scenario

other than Bullseye type slow fire.

 

Now I go the opposite way, tell them to hold it just tight enough to keep it from falling to the ground, or rotating out of the hand from the recoil. "You are holding a thin shelled egg, don't break it." I've seen too many who take "firm grip" to mean a grip like they are wrestling with a 15 foot boa constrictor.

P.P.S. - as you can tell - there are at least 237 theories about how to shoot correctly - so when

you get down to it, try every and any thing you read here, find what works for you, and move on.

There is no capitol T truth here as well . . .

.

 

 

Only 237? Didn't you get the memos? :lol:

 

Seriously, there are so many opinions because there are so many combinations of things that can be going on at the same time, and may not be consistent from shot to shot that it may take a while to get them all worked out.

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Now I go the opposite way, tell them to hold it just tight enough to keep it from falling to the ground, or rotating out of the hand from the recoil. "You are holding a thin shelled egg, don't break it." I've seen too many who take "firm grip" to mean a grip like they are wrestling with a 15 foot boa constrictor.

.

 

 

Only 237? Didn't you get the memos? :lol:

 

Seriously, there are so many opinions because there are so many combinations of things that can be going on at the same time, and may not be consistent from shot to shot that it may take a while to get them all worked out.

Yes sir, I agree - there's lots of variables . . it's like diagnosing a golf swing over the internet . . . .

 

I was taught that if you held the gun as tight as you can without inducing muscle tremors, then the hand''s grip isn't

going to get any tighter while your finger moves when you press the trigger. I should probably add that this

was personal protection CQB training, and the theory was - "Look - when you're in a gun fight you're going to clench a

lot of muscles, so train like you fight and fight like you train!".

 

That's also why we were trained to use the distal joint, rather than the pad - the pad is great for controlled shooting in

zero tension conditions, when you're dumping adrenalin in a tense situation - fine motor skills go away - so you want a

technique that serves using gross motor skills under duress. Thus - Firm grip & finger joint trigger press.

 

When I release my grip from my guns with checkered grips I have a slight pattern in my skin from the checkering - but that

gun stayed put and the action cycled every time - no limp-wristing allowed!

 

I shoot my Colts and Rugers like that too . . . but I understand that some of the best shooters in the world think different. . .

and their success counts too. Different schools - different mentors . . .

 

I'm sure that some where there's a single solution that will work for all -just like there is a single martial art being

taught in some school in Tibet that will out do all other arts! :)

 

 

Take care pard - and ride safe,

 

Shadow Catcher

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Thanks for the help. I was practicing today with a .22, which does the same thing, and I started pulling the trigger with the fat pad ( less finger ) I guess, and my groups were MUCH better. I think I was pulling the trigger at the first joint rather than the end of my finger. I'll keep trying.

Doc

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