H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

On a related note about the Why? I have found that once you start down this path, it becomes more and more something that you like to play with. Too that end... This is the exceedingly rare AWA Lighting Bolt. According to an article in Guns of the Old West magazine, 8 or less were made before AWA closed up shop. I was VERY lucky to get this one. The holster is by WM Brown out of Tucson, Arizona. https://wmbrownholster.com/product/mares-leg/ In fact, all of my Mare's Leg holsters are by them. They had to slightly customize this one cuz the Lightning Bolt is a bit fatter that the 92 based pistols they designed it for. This was the first pistol of this type I got. A few years later, I discovered a "pistol" made from a real Lightning that had recently sold at auction. So, the concept does go quite a way back. The pistol is a Chiappa. The caliber is .44 Magnum. Replaced the factory D loop lever with their "Rio Bravo" loop. This one is a Uberti made Taylors. The barrel is 16.5" and I had the stock cut back to Mare's Leg length. This one is a .44-40. The big loop is again aftermarket. And yeah, drawing from the holster is a little awkward, but doable. Now, you may be wondering why I didn't get them all in .45 Colt to match the Lighting Bolt. Well, to be honest, I got them in the caliber that would match the more conventional revolvers and rifle that they would theoretically be combined with. But of course, they would up being paired with each other. Oh well, there's nothing wrong with a multi caliber shoot. Once I get the proper stock for the 86, I'll contact the holster maker and see of they can make me one of these holsters for it. And then, there is this... No holster, and it is a bit "flippy" when fired, but not excessively so. This is a Chiappa. Wish they'd made it with large loop. The idea of writing an article for a gun magazine for all of these is in my head, but, well... I dunno. What's next? Not really interested in the Henry Repeating Arms Mare's Legs, and nobody makes one based on the Marlin, but if they did, I'd be interested. No way I'd reconfig an original, unless maybe I could find an antique one with a 14" factory barrel and get a second stock for it. Those rifles are specifically exempt, but I don't know if doing the stock would re-regulate them. I'd have to look into it, I suppose. The only other thing I can think of is one based on an 1860 Henry to create a kind of an ersatz Volcanic. But that'd be more trouble than it's worth.

Minimum overall length for NFA '34 is 26" This gun is over that. As far as why goes, cuz it's fun! I mean, why do you own Corvette when an Impala will do, and is probably much more practical? Cuz it's fun. With regards to .45-70 and recoil, my initial Trapdoor safe load in this caliber worked great in a Trapdoor rifle, but was a nasty shoulder thumper in a Trapdoor carbine and my 20" 1886 Winchester. Switched to Trailboss, and the recoil was suddenly very comfortable. Of course, Trailboss is currently unobtainium, but I have a lot of loaded ammo on hand. I plan on shooting it next Saturday, so I'll comment on the recoil afterwards.

It holds 4 .45-70's, 6 .45-45's or 5 .45-45's behind a single .45-70 round. I plant to take it to the range a week from today.

Remember how Steve McQueen used to have .45-70 cartridges on his gunbelt that he used to carry his Mare's Leg? It was a TV absurdity, as if a .45-70 could fit in a Winchester 1892. Ridiculous! But, the gun itself was wicked cool, and even though they are not SASS legal, many of us are fond of them, and even own one, or maybe more. But... The concept of a Mare's Leg in .45-70 has always been an intriguing one to me. It's certainly not practical, but the Mare's Leg itself really isn't, so who cares. But is it even possible? Nobody makes a 1886 in the Mare's Leg configuration, so that means making one yourself. But THAT means running afoul of NFA '34. Or, does it? If you're willing to have one with a 16" barrel and an overall length of at least 26", then you don't have to worry about NFA '34. So, all you need is an 1886 with a factory 16" barrel that you can then modify into Mare's Leg configuration. I say factory 16" because that way you KNOW it's long enough and don't run the risk of cutting it too short in a cut it yourself modification. (In my opinion.) However, finding a 16" '86 is a bit of a challenge. That being said, Taylor's does market one made by Chiappa with that barrel length. Here is the page on Taylor's website of for the the rifle in question. But for the sake of simplicity, I'll post a couple of pics of the gun here directly. https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/1886-tc86-takedown-16-5-45-70-lc1-220100.html As you can see, there are some "issues" with the gun. The sights are the most obvious. But, it does have a pistol grip stock and a large, or at larger, loop lever than a standard one. It's also a takedown model, which is a plus in my book, but some might not like that. Also that thread cap would have to be replaced with a smooth one. Or at least it would if Mare's Leg's were legal. Now with that as a starting point, behold, an 1886 Mare's Leg in .45-70! As you can see, I put on traditional sights, and had the stock cut to pistol grip shape. I do have a smooth thread cap on order, as as you saw in the second pic from the website, the forestock has an unconventional shape to it. I have also ordered one in the traditional shape. The action was smooth, but a little clunky, and very heavy. In truth, if I was using it as a rifle with the regular stock, I would have found it acceptable. But in this configuration, it was not. So, I had an action job done. It's not at all clunky anymore, and while still heavier than a 92, it's much better. Still have to brace the grip against my chest to start action open, but it then levers quite well. I did consider enlarging the loop, but decided against it. Now, you may be wondering about those two cartridges under the gun... The one on the right is a .45-70. The one on the left is a .45-70 trimmed back to .45 Colt length. I call it the .45-45. I "developed" it to use a sub round in a couple of my single shot rifles, allowing for a cartridge I can use in .45-70 chambered rifles that can be loaded to .45 Colt pressures (if "hotter" than normal) that are still way below "Trapdoor safe" levels. Anyway, to my enjoyment, I discovered that these shorter rounds will cycle through the 86 with no problem! Well, you gotta run it a little slow, but they do work. (They also work flawlessly in my Large Frame Lightning with no problems and without having to slow down.) And so, that's the rundown. The final modifications will be done as soon as I get the needed parts, and I look forward to shooting the thing as the earliest opportunity. There is a local club that let's me use my Mare's Legs, and I'll ask if I can try this with the .45-45 ammo. If not, that's okay. I am sure they'll let me put a few test rounds in the dirt after the shoot is over. I'll let you know how it turns out. And getting back to the title of this thread, THIS is what the Mare's Leg should have been. It would work with .45-70, taking away a little bit of the absurdity we saw on TV. Or perhaps replacing it with a different level of absurdity. And even if they stayed with the 92, they shoulda used one with this kind of a grip. I look forward to, just for laughs, running a few rounds of .45-45 loaded with smokeless in it, but then the last round being a .45-70 loaded with black. People will be surprised. This WOULD be just a few rounds in the dirt for fun, and I am sure it'll surprise the onlookers. Finally, once I make the final modifications, I plan on sending a pic to Taylor's with the suggestion that they either trim the barrel back to the same length as the takedown lever, or even a non take down with a button make and the barrel shortened back to the octagon length, and sell it as a pistol. They won't, but it'll be fun to suggest it.

What are you planning to use for a rifle? .45 Cowboy Special has been mentioned for use in revolvers, but it is generally too short to work in most of the rifles we use in this game. On the other hand, I have learned that .45 Schofield will reliably run through an AWA replica of the Colt Lightning and replicas of the Winchester 92. (Or at least mine.) If won't work in a 73 though. If you wanna go with a shorter cartridge to allow for lower powder charges, this is an option.

Even an experienced reloader must be careful. Especially when switching to a new powder. I used Trailboss for .45 Colt. Even a minimum charge is over half the case capacity, so it's impossible to double charge it. When TB became scarce, I switched to 231 for .45 Colt. A good powder, with a nice mild load. But it takes up far less space in the case, and it is possible to double charge. You do not want to do that. You REALLY don't want to do that. Some powders are more useful in multiple chamberings than others. Many are not. Red Dot would be good for both .45 Colt and 12 Gauge, but RD is as rare as TB these days. I would suggest finding one powder for the .45 and one for the 12. And no matter what, be careful.

Hmm.... If only I had a gun chambered for it! Question: For .45-70, we know that there are "trapdoor safe" smokeless loads. Do such things exist for .50-70, or is it a black powder only cartridge? I honestly don't know. For the record, for a trapdoor, I'd want one of the later ones (Model 1870 or 1871, I forget exactly) that were made from the ground up as trapdoors, not conversions. Or a Remington Rolling Block. If it had to be BP only, so be it, but I am curious.

VERY interesting. Thanks for posting.

Here in Massachusetts, the 10 round limit is for detachable magazines. Unless it's changed recently. Which is possible. Heck, the Remington 1100 is illegal here now.

What are you talking about? The Wiki article clearly says .543" and... Wait.. D'OH!!!!! There is a spot in my monitor that was perfectly positioned over the 1 in .512 that made it look like .543. Never mind. I gotta go wipe down my screen... grumble grumble...

Not according to Wikipedia. LOL

I believe the .50-70 used a .515" bullet. The .50-90 used a .543" bullet. I think that might explain why it wouldn't work. Unlike the ,.45-70 and .45-90 that both used a .458" bullet. Heh, in modern parlance, the .50-70 would be a .52 caliber round, and the .50-90 would probably be classed as a .55.

This is proving to be fascinating. Thank you to everyone for all of the information. I believe I am starting to understand things a little better. On a standard SAA, there are clicks 1 2 3 and 4. Click 4 is technically 4 and 5 happening at the same time. I am getting the impression that on the Bisley, clicks 3, 4 and 5 are all happening at the same time. That actually makes sense as I watch what happens as the pistols are cocked. I wonder if it is in any way related to the fact that the Bisley trigger is much farther back in the trigger guard than the standard SAA is. They also tend to have a much lighter trigger pull with less travel. This lighter trigger seems to be the case in the half a dozen or so that I have handled over the years in addition to the pair I own.

Okay, let's try this... On a standard SAA, there is a click between the half cock and the full cock clicks. On both this and my nickel Bisley, there's just nothing there. SAA 4 clicks. Bisley 3 clicks. I find it hard to believe that 2 of these would wear away entirely the exact same click. Also with click 3 on the SAA there is trigger movement. Between half cock and full cock, where click 3 would be on the Bisley, there is no trigger movement. There's just something "different." Or so it seems to me.

Nice article. I am not the collector Cholla refers too, but a couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to find one of these pistols to add to my collection. They are very well made, and while not as "accurate" as the Italian reproductions, I think they are of superior build quality. (I also have an Uberti to compare it to.) Perhaps I'll post some pics this evening when I get home from work.

Calling any experts on firearms made on the old Martini action. A few years ago, I came across an auction on Gunbroker of a pair of "Dueling Pistols" in .455 Webley that were built on the Martini-Henry action. The seller did not know if they were made is pistols, or were converted rifles, so I passed on them. I have never seen anything like them ever again. The closest I can say I have seen is a Kyber Pass Martini pistol built from the ground up in .303 British. Needless to say, I did not even think about purchasing that! But, I am curious. Were any pistols, target, dueling, whatever, actually made on that action in pistol caliber cartridges? If they were, I'd assume they are quite rare. Any information would be appreciated.

Well... Maybe this will help.... The trigger clearly moves on all three clicks.

Well, there is this... https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/1886-tc86-takedown-16-5-45-70-lc1-220100.html All you gotta do is replace the rail with buckhorn sights and that weird front one with a regular one, and get a smooth cap for the threads, and there you go. That's what I did. (And other stuff that I am not yet ready to divulge.)

Yeah, I know how Click 4 on an SAA is sorta 2 for 1, and if the timing isn't right, it'll sound like 5 clicks. In fact, one on of the Bisleys, The 3rd, full cock click, you can hear 2 clicks at almost the same time that are not there on the other one, so I am assuming that the same as Click 4, 2 for 1 full cock click as on an SAA. But it's just plain weird. 3 is full cock, 2 is half, and 1 is the safety notch. Absolutley 3 clicks, not a 4th in sight. Or if you prefer, there is no click between half cock and full cock. With my SAA's, all 4 are clearly discernable.

C-O-L-T. We've heard it, we've said it, we've bemoaned the fact that some of the clones don't have 4 clicks as you cock them like a real Colt does. But as I was checking something on my Bisley's this morning, I found my self saying, "Waitiasec... There's only 2 clicks!" Perplexed, I very carefully and slowly tried cocking both of them. Click 1, the so called "safety notch" is there on both of them, it's just really quiet, and you don't pull the hammer back as far as you do on a regular SAA to engage it. Click 2 is half cock, and click 3 is full cock. In other words, three clicks. Not four, three. Now, I've never taken these guns apart, or any of my standard SAAs for that matter, but I aways guessed that the only difference was the shape of the grip and hammer. But now, apparently, I am starting to guess that there are some internal differences as well. What they would be, I do no know, but it seems that they were there. And, I don't think that one of the clicks is just worn away with age. Both pistols are very tight, have perfect timing and lock up properly. The odds of them both wearing away the same click just seems improbable to me. So... To anyone else with a real Colt Bisley, three or four clicks? To any gunsmiths who might know, are they internally very different? Curiosity needs to be satisfied.

More than likely people who had rifles in the caliber. I'd guess that they were primarily used for varmint control and maybe small to medium game hunting. Back in the day, .32-20 was considered suitable for deer, for example. I doubt it was many people's primary defensive caliber, but I'd be surprised if at least a few people didn't use it for that. The caliber had a reputation for excellent accuracy, so perhaps some target shooters as well. I've seen for sale, and own 2, .32-20 Bisleys, which was a target gun, for example.

Who can short stroke? We can short stroke. If you dare go short stroke We will short stroke You.

There are a couple of 1888's on Gunbroker right now, for reasonable prices at the moment. In fact, if I didn't already have one, I'd be going for one of them. I will confirm that the magazine tube on the Uberti 66 looks to be the same size as the ones on the .44's and .45's. Haven't loaded it up yet to see how it works.

Well, maybe obsession is the wrong word, but I really like the .32-20 caliber, and would like to increase examples of it in my collection. Here's what I have. Pistols (SASS Type) Colt SAA 1st Gen Antique Colt SAA 3rd Gen Colt Bisley x2. Pistols (Non-SASS type) S&W M&P Going forward, I think the most logical things to obtain would be a non antique 1st Gen SAA, and a 2nd Gen SAA. If I can ever find one that's legal for sale in Massachusetts, that scaled down SAA clone marketed by Cimarron and other that comes with dual .32-20 and .32 H&R Magnum cylinders is attractive. I suppose a generic SAA clone in the caliber is also an option, especially if it's not very expensive. But finding one in Massachusetts would be hard. I think that if I can find a Colt 1878 in the caliber, I'd be hard pressed to pass on it. I know there have been more than a few DA revolvers made for the caliber by Colt, S&W and others, but that's more peripheral interest. I'm more interested in stuff I can use for our game, or at least peripheral to it. I'm not really interested in the Ruger. Well made guns, but not of personal interest. I assume they offer it in .32-20, but don't know. Can anyone confirm? I know that S&W never chambered the Model 3 for the caliber, and in fact, as far as I know, only Colt did anything in pistols with it back in the day. As far as modern made guns go, when I first got into CAS, I believe it was Taylors who was marketing a 58 Remington "converted" to the caliber, but I never actually saw one anyplace other than on their website. Anybody ever see/obtain one of these? Or perhaps any other "conversions?" Now, for rifles, it's far more interesting. I don't yet have any single shot rifles in the caliber, but I am interested in one of the BSA rifles that started out as a .310 Cadet rifle that has been rechambered to .32-20. They are not hard to find, and fairly inexpensive. Also the Remington Rolling Block would be on my list. But I don't know if anything else was chambered for it, or if any single action pistols were. Anybody know? For SASS type rifles... Winchester 73 Colt Lighting Winchester 92 Uberti 66 Marlin 1888 I guess the most obvious "gap" here would be a Marlin 94. Don't know if anything else was ever made, or if any replicas in a caliber that originals, like the 66, didn't have are out there. Something else I'd like to find is a short barrel Winchester 92, but dang, those are expensive! I did see one at auction a couple of years ago, but I lost out when it got too expensive for my wallet. Not seen another one since. Now, granted, I am mostly a .45 Shooter, but for some reason, I find breaking out the .32-20 now and again to be "fun" for some reason. Maybe it's cuz the guns I have for are all wicked cool. I don't know. Okay, with all of that in mind, who else finds .32-20 to be strangely addictive? What else might be out there to add to the collection that I am unaware of. An inquiring mind who's currently loading up truckload of brass for the caliber wants to know.

If they don't charge a fee for the credit card, I'll use that. If they do, I'll get a bank check/money order. This also gives me a receipt from the bank, which I like having. Sometimes I'll do a personal check if they say they will take one, But I usually don't because of the wait for it to clear. Obviously, all purchases. I've not sold anything.