WTC - 170 degree rule.

[Tennessee williams]

41 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

Legitimate calls yes.

 

Best Wishes

I wouldn't advocate for illegitimate calls.

I myself believe the beauty of us having a 170° rule, is if we see a firearm go to 180° and it is not actively being holstered then it has NO DOUBT broken the 170 rule. If I have doubt about the position I cannot call it. Nor should anybody else. The benefit of my doubt will go to the shooter. 

[Texas Jack Black]

10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I wouldn't advocate for illegitimate calls.

I myself believe the beauty of us having a 170° rule, is if we see a firearm go to 180° and it is not actively being holstered then it has NO DOUBT broken the 170 rule. If I have doubt about the position I cannot call it. Nor should anybody else. The benefit of my doubt will go to the shooter. 

 Best Wishes  you are correct

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

Peanut gallery has no input on the calling of penalties on the firing line. Only the Range Officers in charge of the stage for that shooter have that ability. They are Chief Range Officer, the Timer Operator, 3 Spotters, Score Keeper, the Loading Table Officer, and the Unloading Table Officer.

 

Peanut gallery member can quietly bring what they think was a penalty to the attention of the Timer Operator, but they cannot assign any penalties. What they saw as a penalty may have only appeared to be because of their perspective from behind the line.

[Shawnee Hills]

13 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Peanut gallery has no input on the calling of penalties on the firing line. Only the Range Officers in charge of the stage for that shooter have that ability. They are Chief Range Officer, the Timer Operator, 3 Spotters, Score Keeper, the Loading Table Officer, and the Unloading Table Officer.

 

Peanut gallery member can quietly bring what they think was a penalty to the attention of the Timer Operator, but they cannot assign any penalties. What they saw as a penalty may have only appeared to be because of their perspective from behind the line.

The peanut gallery does have input regarding potential safety infractions but, yes, may not actually assess penalties.  That would be up to the TO to handle.  According to the Handbook:

 

Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct. All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe. Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation.

 

and

 

It is expected the Timer Operator will be the responsible party for resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the TO should call the infraction to a TO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

 

What am I missing?  I think we're saying the same thing but figured it worth checking.

[Texas Jack Black]

34 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

The peanut gallery does have input regarding potential safety infractions but, yes, may not actually assess penalties.  That would be up to the TO to handle.  According to the Handbook:

 

Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct. All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe. Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation.

 

and

 

It is expected the Timer Operator will be the responsible party for resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the TO should call the infraction to a TO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

 

What am I missing?  I think we're saying the same thing but figured it worth checking.

So three pages to realize if  a shooter that is watching in the peanut gallery and no one else sees an alleged violation nothing happens unless  the person shooting calls it on himself. 

Nothing new here right?

Edited October 11 by Texas Jack Black

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

1 hour ago, Shawnee Hills said:

The peanut gallery does have input regarding potential safety infractions but, yes, may not actually assess penalties.  That would be up to the TO to handle.  According to the Handbook:

 

Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct. All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe. Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation.

 

and

 

It is expected the Timer Operator will be the responsible party for resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the TO should call the infraction to a TO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

 

What am I missing?  I think we're saying the same thing but figured it worth checking.

Looks like we are saying the same thing. I was responding to those who thought any member of the peanut gallery could assign a penalty to the shooter. 

 

The peanut gallery can politely bring observations to the attention of the TO. The TO then decides if an infraction occurred, or if the angle and/or perspective of the peanut gallery member just made it appear that an infraction occurred. 

 

The Timer Operators that I know work very hard to be fair, follow all SASS rules while "Safely Assisting The Shooter Through The Course of Fire". They don't need or deserve to have spectators upsetting shooters by trying to assess penalties.

 

[Shawnee Hills]

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

So three pages to realize if  a shooter that is watching in the peanut gallery and no one else sees an alleged violation nothing happens unless  the person shooting calls it on himself. 

Nothing new here right?

Just wait until Land Run is over.  This baby will hit 4 pages or better!  😁

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Peanut gallery has no input on the calling of penalties on the firing line. Only the Range Officers in charge of the stage for that shooter have that ability. They are Chief Range Officer, the Timer Operator, 3 Spotters, Score Keeper, the Loading Table Officer, and the Unloading Table Officer.

The "peanut gallery" has as much input as the scorekeeper, Loading table operator, and unloading table operator you mentioned when dealing with safety infractions. None of those assess calls either.

2 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Peanut gallery member can quietly bring what they think was a penalty to the attention of the Timer Operator,

It doesn't say quietly. As a matter of fact, I tend to be quite loud when swept. 

2 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

but they cannot assign any penalties.

Who on the stage does beside the TO?

2 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

What they saw as a penalty may have only appeared to be because of their perspective from behind the line.

I believe EVERYBODY is behind the line of the shooter. 

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

I believe EVERYBODY is behind the line of the shooter. 

Yes, but the TO should be right there with the shooter. As a result the TO is the one with the best perspective to see if violations occur. I don't want to argue with you, I just stated the basic fact that the TO is the ONLY person who can assign penalties. It is a very basic fact that can be found in the Shooters Handbook, and RO class materials.

[Tennessee williams]

5 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Yes, but the TO should be right there with the shooter. As a result the TO is the one with the best perspective to see if violations occur. I don't want to argue with you, I just stated the basic fact that the TO is the ONLY person who can assign penalties. It is a very basic fact that can be found in the Shooters Handbook, and RO class materials.

I understand, but that's just not what you said. You may have just misworded what you wanted to say. You said the peanut gallery did not have any input with safety penalties and they do. With regards to the TO being in the best position, that depends. Someone off to the side is in a better position to see the long gun go vertical than the TO who is right behind the shooters strong side. I'm not trying to argue either, I promise! This thread is getting long in the tooth.

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I understand, but that's just not what you said. You may have just misworded what you wanted to say. You said the peanut gallery did not have any input with safety penalties and they do. With regards to the TO being in the best position, that depends. Someone off to the side is in a better position to see the long gun go vertical than the TO who is right behind the shooters strong side. I'm not trying to argue either, I promise! This thread is getting long in the tooth.

It seems we are basically saying the same thing. Good TO's always are aware of their shooters firearms with relation to the 170. I start saying muzzle if they get close to 160, I will put a hand behind the shooters shoulder to stop them from breaking the 170. Just how I was taught, I guess.

 

Sorry for any confusion I caused. Thanks for your patience and understanding.