Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I thought I posted this earlier, but I can't find it. I have some Black Horn 209 B-P substitute to test. Are any of you pards using this in B-P cartridges? Are smokeless lubes bullets OK to shoot? Any thing I should look out for? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Howdy BDM, Your original post was on page 2. As noted, that powder is NOT LEGAL in ANY category for SASS-rules competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thanks Pale Wolf...don't know why I couldn't find my original post. It didn't even come up on a search. But, knowing it isn't SASS legal, I won't bother with it. thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Windshadow Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Could you not use it up in any of the non black powder categories? it is just a Smokey smokeless after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Could you not use it up in any of the non black powder categories? it is just a Smokey smokeless after all NO...the ROC ruled a few years ago that the last statement in the following applies to ALL categories...BP or "smokeless". • Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms.Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes. Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited . SHB p.12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 NO...the ROC ruled a few years ago that the last statement in the following applies to ALL categories...BP or "smokeless". SHB p.12 Well, that is too bad because it sure is accurate and fun to shoot......very easy to load and very easy to clean up. I can't think of a reason why it would not be legal in SASS, but rules are rules. It certainly makes plenty of smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Well, that is too bad because it sure is accurate and fun to shoot......very easy to load and very easy to clean up. I can't think of a reason why it would not be legal in SASS, but rules are rules. It certainly makes plenty of smoke. I suspect this rule was written to stop folks from brewing their own duplex loads - a very hazardous practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I suspect this rule was written to stop folks from brewing their own duplex loads - a very hazardous practice. Oh, I agree.......but I have used a bunch of Blackhorn and I don't find anything bad about it (well beside the price)......like I said; Rules are Rules and someone or several someones smarter than me probably put in a lot of time deciding the rules..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Well, that is too bad because it sure is accurate and fun to shoot......very easy to load and very easy to clean up. I can't think of a reason why it would not be legal in SASS, but rules are rules. It certainly makes plenty of smoke. It's not black powder or even related to it. It's nitrocellulose based with potassium and sulfur added to make it smoke. They took smokeless powder and adulterated it to give the illusion of BP. From the Western Powder website FAQ ... 14. Can I use Blackhorn 209 in a cap & ball revolver? NO. #11 percussion caps, or musket caps do have sufficient strength to ignite Blackhorn 209. 16. Will Blackhorn 209 work in black powder cartridges, such as the 45 colt and 45-70? Blackhorn 209 was not designed for black powder cartridges, but will function very well in a number of cartridges. See our load data page for specific loads. Also, it has been banned in New Mexico during their muzzleloading hunting season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It's not black powder or even related to it. It's nitrocellulose based with potassium and sulfur added to make it smoke. They took smokeless powder and adulterated it to give the illusion of BP. From the Western Powder website FAQ ... 14. Can I use Blackhorn 209 in a cap & ball revolver? NO. #11 percussion caps, or musket caps do have sufficient strength to ignite Blackhorn 209. 16. Will Blackhorn 209 work in black powder cartridges, such as the 45 colt and 45-70? Blackhorn 209 was not designed for black powder cartridges, but will function very well in a number of cartridges. See our load data page for specific loads. Also, it has been banned in New Mexico during their muzzleloading hunting season. Ok, I didn't say it was black powder, just said it was fun.........(sorry, this sounded kind of negative so I changed it).....I wasn't saying anyone else should try Blackhorn, just said that I enjoy it. It is the most accurate powder that I have personally ever used in pistol or my long range lever rifle (40-60 Win) and I even use it in my shotgun.....I also didn't imply that it was SASS legal, was just wondering out loud why not........If it is "because the rules say so" then fine. I get the duplex load danger, but this is factory manufactured and thereby one would think it is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Nobody's saying it's not a fun powder Billy, and nobody's trying to throw cold water on you. If you've been having good results with it and using it within their load limits that's fine. However, the powers that be have said no, and I'm sure they have their reasons. I looked at the load data and the cautions, and it's pretty peppy and not a direct BP sub even though they claim it was formulated for muzzleloaders. The caveat is that it's for in-line muzzleloaders using a 209 shotgun primer. The cartridge data has velocities that exceed SASS maximums, and the pressures push the limits of SAAMI specs. Assuming it's a direct sub, an inexperienced reloader loading on a volume-for-volume basis would end up with cartidges that could generate extreme velocities and pressures, resulting in damaged targets and potentially burst guns. The decision to ban it was probably a safety issue. Other things have been banned too, even though from a historical perspective they'd be "correct". Marlin pump shotguns are a good example. They had the potential for an out-of-battery discharge, sending the bolt out of the receiver and into the shooter's head. Bad idea, and Marlin even issued a notice not to use them. Some folks argued "I've been using mine for years without a problem", but a 100+ year old gun of unknown care with a bad reputation just presented too much risk. Banned. The 1893 Winchester - potential for the barrel to unravel if used with smokeless powder. Banned. Winchester even offered to swap new 1897 shotguns for all the 1893 models, and that was 113 years ago. If they recognized the problem back then, things haven't changed much in the intervening century. I think when the WB or the ROC does impose a ban on something they do a risk assessment first, and if it poses an extreme hazard they issue their ruling based on safety concerns and not just on a petulant "because we say so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Shooters of Blackhorn 209, besides being illegal for use by SASS rules should be aware of the following quote in the Single Shot Rifle Journal article where the powder was tested by spectrograph analysis ... "Haag's findings were that Blackhorn 209, while basically nitrocellulose contained inclusions of potassium nitrite and sulphur, which may create potassium sulphate, possibly sulphur trioxide, or dioxide combining with water in the air form sulfuric acid. He concluded that there is potassium nitrite and elemental sulphur embedded in what is basically a nitrocellulose product" Note the words Sulfuric Acid! Should users who don't regularly clean their firearms after use of smokeless (nitro based) powder believe that Blackhorn 209 doesn't have to be regularly be cleaned out of the bore, read this from the manufacturer - To maximize the performance of your firearm, we recommend you clean it regularly using the following procedures: http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/general-cleaning/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concho Billy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Well, I guess it would be alright if I continue to hunt with Blackhorn.........as long as I stay out of New Mexico.........Happy Trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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