H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

Another thing you can do is look for the serial number here... https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/faq/date-your-firearm.html And more importantly here... https://winchestercollector.org/dates/ These will sometimes tell you information that Cody does not have. That said, I'd get a Cody letter if possible.

I should point out that this gun was obtained for free. Many years ago, my father was helping a lady clean out her house, and this was found in a drawer. Lady wanted it gone, so Dad took it off her hands. To be honest, I have seen other examples that look fantastic on the market, and I was shocked at how expensive they are! I had no idea that these old M&Hs were so valuable. But seeing some images of ones that still look factory new had me wondering about getting this little guy fixed up right. That's shy I contacted Turnbull. But they don't do nickel anymore. Believe me, this is all very much in the "research" phase. If it's too expensive to redo it, I'll probably not do it. I guess nickel refinishing is actually more complicated that bluing/case hardening. That being said, I was wondering if there is anyone out there that specializes in it. It's good to have projects under consideration.

I have this Merwin & Hulbert in my collection. Mechanically, this gun works exactly as it should, and is a very nice shooter. Caliber is .38 S&W, and this is the gun that started my interest in that chambering. But as you can see, it is rather ugly. I have made no decisions yet, but I have recently been thinking of having it restored. I contacted Turnbull, but they don't do nickel refinishing. I'm wondering if there is anyone out there who does. And of course, who can do it right. I don't wanna have the markings all scrubbed away, for example. Obviously, I am not looking for a simple "refinish" but a proper restoration of the finish. Any suggestions?

I will second this. Keeping it clean is VERY important. Now, I have noticed that with my .45 this is very true. Lotsa blowback. With the .44-40, not as crucial. No blowback at all. I'd assume that a .38 will have the same blowback issues as a .45 for the same reasons. I have never torn mine down though. All I do is make sure to flush out the action in general, and the firing pin channel in specific with Gunscrubber after every match. This blasts away any and all gun. For the firing pin, with the straw in the spray head, press it to where the pin comes out of the bolt face and squirt away. After a few quick blasts, the stuff will come out clean. After doing this, oil the gun properly, and you are all set for the next match.

The AWA Lighting is, in my opinion, a good one. I have two, a .45 and a .44-40, and they have been very good to me. The .45 was the first rifle I shot a clean match with, for example. It also infected me with the Lightning Bug. Beware the Lightning Bug. Once it gets ahold of you, it will never let you go. The next thing you know, you'll have seven or more of the things! Now in all honesty, opinions here on the Wire of the AWA are mixed. My experience has been very positive. Others will tell you they have not fared so well. A lot of it depends on "which" AWA you have. If it's an AWA International, it is more likely to be problematic, but if it's an AWA USA, it more likely to be one of the good ones. Mine are USAs, so maybe that's why they work right. I don't know. If you like the .38, and if you really wanna try the Lightning, I'd say go for it. Let's assume it works fine as is. You will never regret it, and it'll wind up being a favorite rifle. If it's got issues, you can always send it to Lassiter for tuning. He can even make a Taurus run, which are universally regarded to be useful tomato stakes. So, you have options. Good luck.

Okay, let's rule out anything double action, those are pocket pistols and nothing more. The real question arises over the various single action 5 shot revolvers. For example, a Smith & Wesson 1-/2 in .32 S&W is "clearly" a pocket pistol. Right? Well... This has got a 6" barrel, so it's not a pocket pistol according to the definition in the rules. The fact is that while a pocket pistol is defined with a maximum size, a main match revolver does not have a minimum size. And since 5 shot revolvers and .32 caliber are main match legal, the above clearly would be okay, as long as it is loaded with 4 and the 5th is loaded on the clock, which in this case would mean shooting 4, ejecting the empties and loading the 5th. But what about a gun identical to this one in every way, but with only a 4 inch barrel? Is that a pocket pistol and not allowed to be a main match pistol, or a very small main match pistol? The rules say you can't convert a pocket pistol to use as a main match pistol, so if you used one in a pocket pistol side match, you could not use it, but what if there was no side match you used it in? Or does that "conversion" just apply to a gun used as a pocket pistol in one of those elusive main match stages that include a pocket pistol as a third gun that the Handbook does say happens from time to time? In other words, there are a lot of undefined variables. Personally, as far as I am concerned, if it has not been used as a pocket pistol at the match, and is a single action, I feel it's main match okay. If you wish to handicap yourself with a gun that has to have the 5th round loaded on the clock just for the fun of it, knock yourself out. But there are a lot of guns from .32 to .45 that are five shooters that range from very small to "full size" that can be safely loaded with 5 according to the definitions in the rules. You don't see them at shoots very often, but they do exist.

Yeah, the so called "safety notch click" on many single action revolvers does not count. Nor does a revolver having a rebounding hammer have an "exemption." By a safety position, there has to to be a slot or pinhole that you fully lower the hammer into between chambers to lock the cylinder into place. If you have a cartridge converted 1860 with a 5 shot cylinder, you'll see the pinhole on the back of the cylinder. A 58 Remington style gun has a kind of a slot on the edge that hammer fits into. (No pics available at the moment, I am at work.)

Some, but not all. But that does raise an interesting question; where is the dividing line between a "large pocket pistol" and a "small main match revolver?" Or is there one? I have a Cimarron Lightning in .32 that is specifically not allowed as a pocket pistol, and yet it is smaller than my Iver Johnson with target grips that I was told is specifically okay as a pocket pistol when I posted a pic and asked cuz I was unsure. I think in the end, it's a question that is hard to answer. And I am of course talking only about single action revolvers.

To quote the Handbook... "Five-shot revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap." I once asked a simple question about this; does this mean that 5 shot revolvers without a safety position are loaded with 4 and the 5th round is loaded on the clock. The reply came that this was correct. Since asking this question, I have become interested in some of the various 5 shot revolvers made back in the day by many different manufacturers. The reason that they are 5 shot revolvers is that they tend to be smaller, and there is no room for a 6th hole in the cylinder. There are of course exceptions, but this is a common characteristic of this type of gun. Now, using such a pistol would of course be a severe competitive disadvantage, but it is apparently legal, and if you are not trying for the buckle, I can see how it might be a fun way to do something different once in blue moon. Very interesting pistols were made by Colt, Remington, Smith & Wesson, Hopkins & Allen and others that are just plain fun to shoot every now and again. I have not used one in a match, but I have taken several pistols of this type to the range for target shooting, and I always enjoy them. But the idea of trying one at a match intrigues me. Has anyone ever done this, or seen it done? It seems to me that there are several ways you could go about doing it. If the pistol loads like a Colt via a loading gate, do you load the 5th round before or after the first 4 shots? If you are using a S&W top break, you've pretty much got to shoot 4, eject the empties and load the fifth. Seems to me that "Colt style" would be quicker, but S&W style might be more fun. It also seems to me that those who shoot left handed, or double duelist would have a slight advantage if the pistol to be reloaded is held in the left holster/hand if it's a Colt type loading; no need to shift the pistol from one hand to the other. I would guess you'd only want 1 of your pistols to be a 5 shot. Doing it with both would just be self torture, I think. And before anyone asks, I jokingly put forth the notion that you could carry 4 in your 5 shooter, and use a Nagant loaded with 6 with the hammer down on the empty 7th chamber. I was told rather firmly that this is not a solution. Anyway, i don't know if I'll ever actually try this. As much fun as these guns are to own and shoot generically, dealing with them at a match may be a bit much, especially when there are small 5 shooters that you can safely use according to the rules with 5 loaded. Still, it is fun to speculate.

This thread sure has taken some interesting turns! In the end, if you want to shoot black powder in a S&W top break revolver, it seems like you need to use a vintage one, which you pretty much need to use black in anyway. Modern reproductions, be they made in Italy or Springfield, are smokeless only guns, if you want to use them in a SASS match. Specific ways to get all the smoke of black powder out of them do exist, but are not allowed in our game. It could be argued that SOME of those restrictions should be revisited and perhaps safely changed, but I seriously doubt they ever will be. We've got a lot of "because the rules say so" rules in our game, and I don't think any of them will ever be modified, even if they safely can be. But that's a topic for another thread. As far as S&W top breaks go, be they tiny little .32s like the 1-1/2 or big .44-40's like the New Model 3, or something in between like the model 1891, are just plain fun to own and shoot. May all of us who own one, or more, be they originals or reproductions, enjoy shooting them for as long as we are able.

To say nothing of the fact that to legally bring guns into Massachusetts, you must have a Massachusetts issued License to Carry Firearms, and they must be registered in the state. If you don't have those things, you go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass GO and do not collect $200.00. You can pass through on your way to, say, New Hampshire, but you can't overnight, or unpack your guns while here. So no out of state hunters, no out of state participants in local shooting events. It's not technically illegal, but to do so legally is not easy. A non resident Mass LTC will cost you $100 for 1 year. Registering your guns is fairly easy, but you can't do it if you don't have the local gun permit. (And from what I have read, it's not easy for out of staters to get one.) This has had a very negative effect on CAS here in Massachusetts. At any given shoot in the Commonwealth, you'd traditionally get people from the rest of the New England states to the tune of up to half the participants. That doesn't happen now. It's why, among other things, the Massachusetts/Connecticut/Rhode Island tristate is held in Maine now.

Griff, I must laugh a lot upon hearing that. It seems to be the only explanation to several of the rules of our game. Lessee.... You are in Texas. I'll put you on my list of pards I hope to get to shoot with someday.

Okay. Although, you did say it produces smoke like BP and other subs. The Handbook says that BP shooter have to deal with smoke obscured targets. This stuff does produce enough smoke to do that. Handbook says nothing about chemistry. It does say that duplex loads are not allowed, and then parenthetically mentions 209. Given the amount of smoke it creates, it sure doesn't seem like a smokeless powder in practical reality. But let all of that go. I'll accept your assertion that without regard to how much smoke it throws out, that it is smokeless and can't be used in a BP category. So why can't it be used in a "smokeless" category?

Rooster, I assume you are saying that duplex loads are safe. I will, provisionally, agree with you. If you have the right kind of smokeless and know what you are doing, it very well could be safe. That being said, I can foresee too many people making a catastrophic mistake. There are just to many variables. Which smokeless? How much do you use? Even if it's safe for a gun made last Tuesday, is it safe for one made in 1884? On the one hand, I am a firm believer that when it comes to safety, it is the responsibility of the shooter, not SASS. And while I really don't believe it is up to SASS to guard against "stupid," for lack of a better term, I can understand why the organization would be very opposed to duplex loads. For one thing, if the guy making them DID screw up, he puts not only himself and his guns at risk, but anyone near by. So, I get the "no duplex" rule. And even the most careful of reloaders can make a mistake to deleterious effect. Once this has happened, you tend to want to eliminate any possibility of something like this happening again. The above is why I won't use Win231 anymore, for example. Believe it or not, I was able to have the top gun, a real Colt, repaired. The bottom Armi San Marco, remains dead. And with all of THAT being said, let's just say for the sake of discussion that you figured out a safe duplex load for .45 Colt using a specific amount of a certain smokeless and oh so much black. Clearly there is no reason why you should not use it when you go the range for fun, and even share the data with people who ask about it. But that's a different animal altogether. And now, setting everything else aside, I really hope you and I get to shoot together some day.

Still don't see what the problem is. Not that I really CARE, I shoot smokeless most of the time anyway. I just don't understand. I did experiment with the stuff out of curiosity, not at a shoot. It smokes. It creates BP levels of pressure. Fellow standing next to me at the firing range thought I was using black powder and thought it was "cool" as he'd never seen anyone use it before. I just don't get what the problem is. I guess it's just one of those rules that are what they are that don't make much sense. But let all that go. I do remember reading here on the Wire once that when people complained that the Performance Center guns didn't work with black powder, Smith & Wesson was actually shocked that anyone would want to even try black powder in the guns, and by some accounts, that people would want to fire them in general as they thought they were making a "collector" piece. I found myself remembering how when somebody made a Roy Rogers commemorative rifle, and serial number 1 was given to Roy himself. He remarked how he was looking forward to taking it to the range to see how it shot to gasps of horror. He responded with words to the effect of what is the sense of owning a gun if you're not gonna shoot it. I think he was right.

True... But, I looked into it. Even though it doesn't cost anything, it's still a very convoluted process. I will wait for the One Big Beautiful Lawsuit to get the barrel length restrictions thrown out.

I have to admit that the prohibition on duplex loads makes sense. It just seems like me to be a problem waiting to happen. But I don't understand that the problem with Blackhorn 209 is. When all is said and done, it is a FACTORY powder, not someone mixing things up.

I have heard that the 2000 series Schofields do not mix well with Black Powder. I've had at least one shooter who had one tell me this in person. I've not tried it myself. This is the first time I've heard about one of them breaking when using the stuff though. Here is a thread by Driftwood Johnson from a few years back that explains well why reproduction Schofields do not work with black powder. Driftwood really knows a lot about the old S&W Top Breaks and how/why the work. Much more than I do. I just shoot 'em.

You know, I find myself thinking of this reality... Ohio is no longer in the "Northeast Region." That means The Guns of August won't be the Northeast Regional. But there's no reason I can't still go to it if I want to go. I live in the Boston area. Anything as far as Washington DC or Detroit is doable for a vacation drive, even if it is out of my region. And yes, I have driven all the way to Nevada for the Nevada state shoot cuz it was out west at the right time of the year for me to go to one year. I have driven to New Mexico for End of the Trail. I may yet someday drive to Arizona for it again, or back to Nevada cuz it was a fun shoot. Yes, a LONG trip like that is expensive and takes more planning, but anything within 1 one day driving distance is doable.

While I can not say for certain that I won't be getting any more pistols in the years to come, something that has been on my mind is storage of the ones I have. Now, a pistol in a box or a case is much easier to store, and will be less likely to get scuffed up, than one just sitting on a shelf in safe. Therefore, pistols that I have the original box for, stay in the original box. But what about pistols that I don't have a box for? Or what about some of my custom pistols like my infamous Big Iron? Don't they deserve special storage too? Well, yeah. But the problem is that a lot of your cases out there cost hundreds of dollars. Those that don't are so cheap that they are hardly worth the price. But, I think I may have solved that problem, and I feel like sharing it here. I found this place, https://www.hampelswoodlandproducts.com/collections/solid-top-display-cases and they are not over pricey. Less than $50 a pop, There is nothing fancy about them, but they look to be of good quality. They are fairly generic though, but for simple storage, they may be just the ticket. In fact, if you lool here, https://www.hampelswoodlandproducts.com/collections/types?q=Gun Cases they've also got some that are "customized" for specific revolvers. I decided to start things out by getting one each for a Colt in each of the barrel lengths. I had a gift card with $150 on it, so I basically get them for free. If I like them, I will get some of their generic ones, and maybe a few specific ones, as well. If there is any drawback to them, they do not lock, and thus can't double as a travel case. But since they will sit in a safe anyway, it's no big deal. However, for a couple of my guns, maybe I do want a lockable case and perhaps of slightly higher quality. I also found this place. https://billscases.com/ A little more expensive, but they DO lock. And if you do a little digging, you see that they make custom cases for about the same price as everything else. I will probably get at least one from these folks, probably for the Big Iron. Or maybe a double case for it and whatever the Small Iron winds up being. I think I've found something that I've kinda been looking for for a while, and I wanted to share it.

Ask Lamont? Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows....

An AWA in .45 is my main Main Match rifle. It remains the only rifle I've shot a clean match with. I did have some trouble with it once, and I sent it to Lassiter, who repaired it with no problems. This same problem has shown up on an AWA .44-40 and Colt Large Frame in .45-70. According to Lassiter, there is an internal part that he calls a "teeter totter," that is prone to cracking. He says this is a design flaw from the original Colt and has been replicated in the various replicas, but he knows how to fix it. Lassiter is the guy. He can fix a Lighting, and can even make a Taurus work properly.

New York is NOT a part of New England! It is therefore not Yankee! Yankee's are only found in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and the eastern half of Connecticut. (The southwest corner especially has been occupied by foreigners.) Seriously, Yankee = Someone from New England. There are sub definitions, but that's the main one. Yankees put cheddar cheese on apple pie, not ice cream, we drink Moxie, (Well some of us do. It's an acquired taste) are not interested in College Sports, know what the difference is between Jimmies and Sprinkles, are some of the worst drivers in all the universe, are sadly dominated by idiot liberals, have a profound sense of history, sort of, can't stand Starbucks, (Dunkin' Donuts rules) curse the existence of traffic circles, which are called rotaries, not roundabouts, (especially when some moron goes and puts one right off the Battle Green in Lexington) never eat fish west of the Hudson river, have the best pizza in the country, tend to be very full of ourselves and provincial, have the best ballpark in the world, use landmarks like big rocks and Dunkin' Donuts shops when giving directions, and consider at least some of the above to be proper. Oh, and we are very offended by the idea that the New York Highlanders renamed their baseball team the "Yankees" in a clear violation of reality. The lawsuit to get them to stop calling them that is still pending. Seriously, there is something strangely entertaining, and ironic about being in Fenway Park and listening to 35,000 New Englanders shout "YANKEES SUCK!" at the top of their lungs. And we NEVER try to park the car in Harvard Yard. It would get towed. That, and the phrase has become something of a shibboleth. Even locals can't say it without ridiculously overdoing their accent to the point where it sounds faked. Nobody talks like Cliff Claven, nobody talks like Charles Emerson Winchester III, only the Kennedys talk like them, and no one from Hollywood should be allowed to attempt any kind of a New England accent. They will get it wrong. Heck, even Mark Wahlberg's (your cousin, from Boston) accent is wrong. He exaggerates it on purpose in the movies. This post brought to you by someone who knows what it means to be a minority. I am a conservative, prolife, gun owning, Republican, born again Christian, fundamental Baptist. From Massachusetts. It don't get much rarer than that!

But, what's your question about Yankee land? You asked about subways in New York. Yankee land is New England, of which New York is not a part. I are confused.

I see Ohio has been moved out of the Northeast and into the Midwest. In all honesty, that's where it belongs. Never understood how it was in the Northeast. But it does raise the question about the "Northeast Regional." Probably the closest we'll get to having one will again be the Massachusetts/Connecticut/Rhode Island Tri-State, that looks like it will be again held in Maine this year. Last year, there were actually more people not from those three states than from them. I looked it up, the numbers were as follows... 22 from New Hampshire 20 from Massachusetts 13 from Connecticut 9 from New York 7 Rhode Island 6 from Maine 4 from Pennsylvania 4 from Vermont 1 from Kentucky 1 from South Dakota So... 40 from the three states that are from the Tri-State 32 from the rest of New England 15 from elsewhere. Or... 47 from outside of the Tri-State area, more than from in it. Even you don't "count" the 1 each from Kentucky and South Dakota, you can see that this, officially a "Tri-State" is kinda sort of a mini New England Regional. Take the folks from New York and Pennsylvania into account and it's in a way, a type of "Northeast" regional. And, I just checked, once again the MA/CT/RI "Tri-State" will be held in Berwick, Maine this year, May 29-30. If I attend this year, (A good chance) I will probably again host a Cowboy Church service on Sunday Morning. Maybe more than 1 person will attend! But all of that aside, here's to promoting a fun shoot. I think this year, I'll be shooting the Big Iron...