H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

So... What are they, Dapper?

Well, yeah, you could just as easily put the 87 in the Browning family as in the Toggle Link family for the reason you just said. In the end, I very "arbitrarily" put it in the Toggle Link family because it "looks" like it belongs there. It just doesn't look like a part of the Browning "family." I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but that's how I made it up. I guess I had to draw the lines *somewhere." I mean, I considered putting a Winchester 97 in the Lightning family, calling it a "distant cousin" but that just didn't make sense. Of course, with your own collection and family groupings, you can modify in the way that makes the most sense to you.

And finally, what I call the Winchester 94 Family. Theoretically, this family could have a shotgun, Winchester did market the 94 in .410 for a short while, but given how they were all angle eject and had the horrible safety, I am unlikely to ever acquire one. Unless someone (Come on Cimmaron!) markets their 94 replica for it... Rifle: Sears Ted Williams Model 100. (Technically a pre-83 Winchester 94.) .30-30 Carbine: Pre-83 Winchester 94, .44 Magnum. IMO, while there are better guns for our game than this, it is not as bad as some make it out to be. Maybe the post 83's are not as good. This is more likely what people will encounter. .22 Rifle: Winchester 9422. Okay, so I used it again. At least tis time it has the right name for inclusion! Pistol. No one makes a 94 Mare's Leg type pistol, and I have no desire to create one like I did for the 73. For one thing, I'd not chop up a Pre-83 to make one. And that's about all I can share for now. There are other families of guns that I could talk about, but my collection of them is incomplete to non existent. For example, I do have a shotgun and rifle on the British Martini action, but I do not (yet) have a carbine, or .22. I have seen pistols on the action, but that didn't sit will with me for some reason. There is also the Marlin square bolt and round bolt families, and even the Marlin top eject family, that has only a rifle and carbine in it. I think Henry Arms has one of everything, and I am pretty sure there are various single shot families that would be fairly close to complete, missing only a pistol, shotgun, or both. Anybody else got anything to share?

This is the Colt Lightning Family. Again, there is no shotgun. Rifle: Colt Large Frame, .45-85-285. This is Colt's "Express" version of the .45-70. Uses the same case. I load it with 300 grain, .458" bullets Carbine: Colt Medium Frame, .32-20 (Are you seeing a pattern yet?) .22 Rifle: Colt Small Frame .22 Long Pistol: AWA Lighting Bolt, .45 Colt.

I call this next group the Winchester Browning Family, as the main members of it were designed by John Browning. Shotgun: This family does not have a shotgun. At least not really. If ever I could find a .45-70 smoothbore 86, that would qualify. A few are supposed to have been made but they are probably so rare as to be too expensive. Maybe Chiappa will market one someday, but if not, this family has no shotgun. Rifle: Winchester 1886, .45-70 Carbine: Wichester 1892, .32-20. .22 Rifle: Winchester 9422. .22 S.L.LR Okay, this is something of a cheat. It's name calls it a 94, but we all know that it's action is not at all like that gun, and it's just as much a stretch to say it's "more like" these than it's namesake. BUT, it does have the same basic silhouette for a family resemblance, so I think it's okay for inclusion. Pistol: Chiappa 92 Mare's Leg. .44 Magnum. I replaced the factory D lever with this "Rio Bravo" one.

Okay, I call this next group the Winchester Toggle Link Family, for reasons that should be obvious. This is the family that has the most potential variation in it for gun type options. This is also as good a place as any that, for these pics at least, I use originals where I can, and replicas where I must. Shotgun: Winchester 1887. Okay... I know it's action is NOTHING like the rest of the guns, and putting it in this family may seems like a cheat, but, to me at least, it has a strong family resemblance, so I think it's okay to include it here. Rifle: Ubert 1876, .45-60. (Original Winchesters are just too expensive for my wallet!) Carbines: Winchester '73, .32-20. Uberti 66, .32-20, Uberti 1860 Henry, .44-40. All three of these guns are obvious candidates for the family. .22 Rifle Uberti 66 .22R. Uberti made these a few years ago. Winchester never did, but it's not all that different from the .22 73 that they did make. That would be an optional variant, either and original Winchester, or one of the Uberti replicas. Pistol: Chiappa 73, .44-40, "Buntline Mares Leg." This is a home made Mares Leg based on a 16.5" barreled 73 marketed by Taylors. The overall length is well in excess of 26" and the barrel has not been shortened, so there are no NFA '34 problems. I suppose that theoretically, if someone had a Volcanic pistol, that could go here too. See what I mean about this family having a lot of options?

When I did the conversion from RF to CF, the gunsmith asked me if I wanted to expand the chamber for .32 S&W, or leave it as .32 Colt. Since at the time I had nothing else in .32 Colt, I had him expand the chamber. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have, but I don't regret it. More to come...

One of the side effects of our game is that many of us tend to become collectors or the various guns that are used in our game. After while, you start to "categorize" your collection by things like caliber, maker, and so on and so forth. And the longer you do this, the more you realize that there are many different ways to group your different guns. Something that I not too long ago came to realize is that you can sometimes group your guns by the "gun family" that they belong to. For the sake of this post, I am going to define a "gun family" as being a group of guns that have at least a "family resemblance" or that more specifically are all built around the same action. There are several obvious families of guns that could fit this criteria. I am going to define the members of the family in the following manner: Shotgun: A smoothbore gun, usually shoulder fired, any gauge. Rifle: A shoulder fired gun that fires a cartridge that can not be fit into a normal sized revolver. Carbine: A shoulder fired gun that fires a cartridge that can fit into a normal sized revolver. .22 rifle: A shoulder fired gun that is chambered for a .22 rimfire cartridge. Pistol: Pretty self explanatory. Now, some families will actually have members that fit all five types of guns. Some families will only have 2 members. Others will be somewhere in between. There are families that are single shot guns. and others that are repeating firearms. There are families that can consist of more than one option in the five categories, that can be made up entirely of "original" guns, and some that may require a mixture of vintage and modern replicas made by someone other than the original maker, or be made up of "all clones," so to speak. So with that in mind, let me start with one of the families that I have that has a member in every category. The Remington Rolling Block. From top to bottom we have the following... Shotgun: 12 guage. Rifle: .45-70 Carbine: .32 S&W (Started life as a .32 rimfire.) .22 Rifle. Pistol: .22LR. All are original Remingtons. Anyone else care to share some of your families that you may have? I'll post more of mine in a bit.

The Rossi was news to me, as noted above; They do seem to be a fairly "accurate" replica of modern Marlins, right down to the crossbolt safety, which of course is not what I am looking for. The Henry is its own gun. While it does have some similarities to the Marlin, I would not really call it one. The Smith & Wesson 1854 does seem to be more like the Marlins than the Henry guns. But to me, they seem to be a cross between a Marlin and a Henry. Ruger... Well, technically, Rugers ARE Marlins. Just like the guns make in Japan are Winchesters. So, in answer to my original question, it looks like the answer is no.

I'd love to have a 30" F/F hammered double. (NO screw ins) It'd be a nice alternative to my hammerless Parker in the configuration.

Yeah, I'd like one of those too, in .45-70. It seems like all the ones you can find on the used market are .40-60 or .38-55. I suppose the latter wouldn't be too bad, as you can get brass and stuff. I've got an 1888 in .32-20. Sweet shooter.

I did not know that. And, wow, they even make a Mare's Leg, albeit in a "tachticool" configuration. But, just like the Rugers, they have a crossbolt safety. Oh well.

I don't believe in the metric system. It does not exist.

As we all know, there are replicas of the Winchester 94 on the market with no safeties and top eject. These are in "competition" with the ones made by Winchester in Japan with all of those features. Does anyone make a replica of any of the Marlin rifles to compete with the Marlin's made by Ruger? I know Chiappa is marketing a .22 that bears a visual resemblance to the 1897-39A family, but I am talking something a main match caliber.

I type corrected. I thought NH and VT had a combined match. Seems that is not the case. I could swear they used too, and I know went to it one year. But maybe I am mis-remembering and it was just NH.

Yes, Maine has its own match. It's in a few weeks. NH/Vermont also have a combined one. There were more people from NH than any one state at the shoot. There were more people from outside the Tri-State area than from within it! As to why the shoot was held in Maine, it used to be held in Massachusetts. To oversimply things, recent changes to Massachusetts gun laws make it illegal for out of state people to posses a firearm in Massachusetts, unless they have a Massachusetts Licence to Carry Firearms. This made it a crime for people from CT or RI to come to the shoot in Mass. You can pass through, but you can't stop. There are of course some additional details, but for the sake of this event, that's the relevant part in a nutshell.

Oh, I agree that from a practical standpoint, the Mares Leg type pistol has none whatsoever. But from a FUN standpoint, you can hardly beat them. I really need to add this one to the above picture... That's am 86, made by Chiappa, with a 16.6" barrel., and yes, it's a .45-70, but it will work with the cartridge on the left, a .45-70 cut back to .45 Colt length. I call it the .45-45. If the SHORT act passes, this barrel will shorten to just in front of the takedown lever, and the 73 (A Taylors with a 16.5" barrel, will likely shorten to 12" And if the SHORT act passes, maybe a "real" Marlin Mare's leg would be in the making. I don't know.

For those who are interested in a Mares Leg type pistol, I discovered something today. From time to time, I visit the website of the various makers of guns for our game, and today, I clicked over to Chiappa. I was surprised to see a link to this on their home page... https://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/920.441/la322-t-d-bandit- Now, while I don't know know how "close" it actually is, this gun really looks a lot like a Mares Leg version the Marlin 39A. The call it the Bandit 322, and while it is only at the moment available in .22RF, I can't help but remember that the 39A is a direct descendant of the 97 which in addition to being a .22, was also available in .32 Centerfire/Rimfire back in the day. (The Centerfire in question being .32 Short and Long Colt) Anyway, while I saw nothing on the website to suggest the possibility, with a name like "322" maybe they have future plans to consider a .32 caliber version of the gun as well. Would be kinda nifty if they did. Probably be .32 S&W not Colt, but that's be fine with me. But even if they only make it as a .22, this is probably the closest we will come to a Marlin Mares Leg anytime soon. I thought I'd share this info for anyone who might find it to be of interest. For the record, yes, I know Mares Leg type pistols are not allowed, but many of us do find them to be of at least peripheral interest. ,

There is a Massachusetts winner, a Connecticut winner a Rhode Island winner and "Tri-State" champion. Now that you ask, I don't know if you have to be from one of the three states to be the champ.

Wow... I had not heard about this one. What's RI trying to do?

If you need the FID (Firearms Identification, good only for long guns) or the LTC (License to Carry, good for pistols as well as long guns) to buy bore butter, that would indicate that the commonwealth considers it to be ammunition related in some way. In addition to needing the have the "gun permit" to buy live ammunition, you also need it to purchase things like primers, bullets, powder, percussion caps and shot. Oddly, I've never been asked to show it for buying brass, but out of state vendors have asked for copy of it for that as well. You even need it to buy a BB gun, BB's or pellets. Not sure about paintball guns and ammo. What is bore butter, btw? I'd assume it was some sort of black powder lube or bore cleaner, but I honestly don't know.

For the record, I have done well with factory ammo with a 230 grain bullet, and my reloads with a 200 grain one. I did the tests with 5 rounds in the magazine. Well, the Lighting had all 10 at the shoot, of course. I may experiment further will 10 rounds at upcoming shoots. I'll let you all know if they initial test holds. Based on the, limited, comments so far, I wonder if some of this is luck of the draw, or when the rifle was made or by whom. My ASM 92 for example has has had an action job. It needed one like nobody's business. It was unusable out of the box. The 66 and Lightning are both stock. Fun how things that seem pretty straightforward on the surface have so many more variables when you start to discuss the details.

Well, it's been a week since the MA/CT/RI Tristate, and for me, one of the highlights was the 3 stage "mini match" held the day before the two day main match started. It was the highlight because I shot it clean. Yeah, three stages clean is not a big accomplishment, but it's something. Now, for guns I was using the .45 Schofield cartridge. Pistol 1 was a "Third Model" S&W Schofield, chambered of course for that cartridge. Pistol 2 was an Uberti Schofield in .45 Colt and my rifle was my trusty AWA Lightning in .45 Colt, which handled the shorter round absolutely flawlessly. I found the round to be very pleasant to shoot, milder than the Colt round, but not by much. Granted, I am sure that if I was shooting either round anywhere near original full power specs, that the difference might be more noticeable. Anyway, all of this got me thinking. It is obvious to me that you can shoot the Schofield round in just about any revolver chambered for .45 Colt. But what about rifles? It worked properly in my Lightning, which has had no modifications of any kind. But what other rifles, if any, could handle the Schofield round? So, I did some experimenting to see if it would work in any of my other rifles. Here's what I discovered. Armi San Marco 92. It worked. Worked well in fact. Could run it as fast as I could, so that's a success. This did not surprise me because I had previously found that .45-60's ran just fine in my Winchester 86 in .45-70. Uberti Burgess. This did not work. The rounds did cycle through the action, but they did not line up properly to chamber. I had to manipulate by hand to get them into the chamber, so this was essentially a failure. Uberti 66. To my surprise, this worked flawlessly. Given the well documented difficulty that others have mentioned with the Cowboy .45 Special unless you have some modifications done, I expected that to happen here as well. But it didn't. It worked with no problems. I assume this means that the cartridge would also work in a 73 or a Henry. And those are the only rifles I have in .45 Colt to test the Schofields in. But, I know there are other rifles chambered for .45 Colt that exist in our game. Has anyone tried running .45 Schofield in any of them, and has it worked? I'd be curious to know. About the only advantage I can see to this is the ability to not need as much powder as you do for .45 Colt, and given how scarce some of our most popular powders are, and how expensive the ones still available have become, stretching the powder might be an important consideration for some of us.

Too bad. I'd love a 30" full choke version.

.32-20 is one of the calibers I shoot. Used it at the Tri-State last weekend. It's a favorite caliber. But I would never shoot it at a lost brass match for the following reasons... 1. Brass (and ammo) are hard to find, and expensive when you do. 2. Seeing the brass to pick it up can be tricky. I usually get a couple or .38's mixed it without even noticing it. 3. Most of all though, I never buy used .32-20 brass, only new. All too often, when I get used .32-20 brass the previous owner will have trimmed it shorter for some reason. When I am reloading, I of course set the bullet to crimp in the crimp groove. But whenever I get used .32-20 brass, there is about a 50/50 chance that it'll crimp behind the crimp groove, a little over the width of the groove. This is "irksome." I used to sort my brass, looking for the shorter stuff that I would reset the dies for after finishing the untrimmed stuff. But this proved to be tedious. After a couple of cycles of this, I didn't bother, loaded the long and short stuff the same way, and then put the short stuff in separate boxes, used it in my revolvers only, and then discarded it after shooting it. I would not want to risk getting a whole buncha short brass again. Yeah, .32-20 is a relatively rare caliber, but at a huge match, there's likely a few shooters, and all that brass would get mixed together. Who knows what I'd wind up with.